TP52s

[usa2]

your mixing cruising sailboat philosophies with racing sailboats ones. and you've apparently been smoking something rather good.
By the way did you know that stability equals speed, because the rig will remain upright and produce more driving power? Hence the canting keel, which allows you to keep the boat upright with the added leverage.
Fighter aircraft need to have their weight centered, because it allows them to turn faster and fly easier. on a sailboat if your weight is centered, it means you will roll over easier. its okay for fighter planes to roll over, in fact they want them to be able to invert themselves quickly, but on a sailboat thats how people die.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by usa2

your mixing cruising sailboat philosophies with racing sailboats ones. and you've apparently been smoking something rather good.
By the way did you know that stability equals speed, because the rig will remain upright and produce more driving power? Hence the canting keel, which allows you to keep the boat upright with the added leverage.
Fighter aircraft need to have their weight centered, because it allows them to turn faster and fly easier. on a sailboat if your weight is centered, it means you will roll over easier. its okay for fighter planes to roll over, in fact they want them to be able to invert themselves quickly, but on a sailboat thats how people die.

Good Friday USA2. I need first address another 505 sailor who posted:

Trader most certainly did intentionally break a rule.
They chose to not power up the SSB and check in as required by the rules. It can not be any simpler.
You guys are excusing a breach in the rules, because the rule is stupid. Well, change the rule first.
Will all the other penalized boats get a corrected result, or just Trader? Why just Trader?

I can't believe you guys are arguing that boats should get to selectively disregard rules.

The network of chronism is what is making the sailing sport decline on a world wide bases. I use to think it was just the USA where folks were tuning out. But all over the world sports fans have figured out that you can predict who will score 1, 2, 3 by who is connected. These TP52s were connected by name and designer to the Transpac race. It doesn't mater that Trader broke rules (apparently Trader is not a true TP52 by the box rules) or that it's captain chose to take a penulty that resulted in an advantage. What maters is the offer made to Coruba. Apparently it is an offer that the owner can not refuse because for Trader to take 3rd the crew of Coruba, and that included John Guzwell, must give way. The house is not in order. Why follow the game when the game is not what is on paper? You might as well follow politics.

And now to address cruising sailboat philosophies with racing sailboats ones. USA2 has hit the ball well with his response. It directly relates to my trouble with the entire TP52 fleet. One of the premises of a vessel with a name of TransPac is that this vessel will cross the Pacific for racing and once obsolete for racing (because the new competitors are designed faster) she will be converted to an ocean crossing cruising vessel.

Racing sailboat philosophy involves dumping old racers into communities that support cruising. Like those in Puget Sound, San Francisco Bay, and San Diego. The TP52 design phylosophy brazenly designated the west coast of the USA as the dumping ground for the vessels. I have more.

Educators in yacht design are guilty of perpetuating myths. One of these is that there are design philosophies for race boats that are different from cruising boats. The alternate philosophy, that there should be a race boat inside every cruising design and a cruiser in every race boat design has not been given enough attention. This alternate theory is what the Transpac has been all about. The Cal 40s are the best example of the alternate philosphy. The TP52s are the anti Cal 40.

Lets start with the Cal 40. One philosophy of such a vessel is that a single person should be able to handle every sail. This limits hank on sail size to about 500 square feet, assuming athletic crew. A business executive, such as the chairman of IBM who popularized the Cal 40, might handle 350 square feet and a retired person perhaps only 250 square feet. So you can see that when racing, the Cal 40 would be fitted with the largest sails and when her racing days are over she would be fitted and rigged to support smaller ones. All sailing vessels can be thought of this way.

So the TP52s, when they are retired from racing, might sport smaller cruising rigs and find a place with a cruising owner. But lets think about that.

Unfortunately there is no ocean cruising vessel in a TP52. This is because, to exploit the box rules they were built under, the optimum angle of heel is excessive. Even after fitting the vessel with water ballast that can be pumped from side to side (to replace the 15 crew used when racing) prospect of life aboard a TP52 under sail is bleak at best. How do you manage at a tilt of 20 plus degrees?

Promoters of the box rule, such as Jim Teeters, promote a fraud in calling TP52s, TransPacific 52s because this implies that there is an ocean cruising vessel inside a design that has no other purpose than racing. In fact, I find less than 4 feet per crew member to be unrealistic even for ocean racing. WTF were they thinking. They were thinking about all those bulbed vessels of similar kind that they had vested interests in – if even just in the sense that with simple plots on graft paper performance could be predicted and the design specked. These plots allow everything from motor to sail plan to be easily determined. An amateur yacht designer could produce a TP52 design as good as any now racing.


Frank L. Mighetto

[jam007]

Just maybe the owner could sell his TP52 when he retires from racing and buy a Swan or Hallberg Rassy...

Btw for most mono-sailors 20+ degrees of heel (not tilt!) is an everyday occurence. For a Mac-owner I suppose 20+ degree must be a life threatening experience but not for real sailboats with keels.

Anders M

[usa2]

even 40-50 degrees of heel is taken in stride aboard most keel boats. The boat may not be at its fastest when heeled over so much, but at least its stability is still there. A Mac 26 does not have so much righting moment at 50 degrees heel and can easily be rolled over by a high gust of wind. Your notion about Tp52s supposedly needing to have second lifes as cruisers is bull. The CCA rule promoted design types that would satisfy this concept, and even rules such as IOR produced boats that were typically not so specialized as to not be adaptable to cruising. That all changed with IMS/ILC, as spartan racing boats were designed and built to do just that, not cruise-at any point of their life. IRC boats today are either flat out racers-no cruising considerations at all for anytime of the boats existance, or they are racer-cruisers-such as the Swan 45. Why arent you complaining about Open Classes, or G-Cats, or Supermaxis, or ACC boats? They are built to go fast, not cruise in comfort. You need to stop trying to combine pure cruising sailboats with pure racing sailboats. The few racer-cruisers out there make sacrifices, such as being less comfortable, and being slightly slower than that all carbon specialized racing sloop. That said, the Swan 45 does very well to hold her own against other, pure racing designs. Also, the 97 foot Leopard of London did well with the other maxis, despite having teak decks.

[jam007]

Oh no! There are more of them...
http://www.ibk-boats.de/Unsere_Neubo.../odin_820.html
TP 52 sailors beware

[TP 52 Defender]

More lies from Frank - The King's boat sailed every Med event.

You know what Frank - your a class "A" moron, you have no clue as to what a TP 52 is like, you have never even sailed on one.

Still more than 30 TP 52 currenly holding cetificates - so you care to retract your lie?

As to Trader - no clue there either and more lies. Trader is indeed a TP 52 and had a valid certificate, unfortunatly due to a small mishap she will be out till KWRW.

"Unfortunately since it takes 15 crew to stablize a TP52" - More BS lies, why do 52's sail with 10 - 11 crew in distance races (Or less depending on event)

Your comments on carbon fiber are to sad and dumb to comment on ....

Frank stick to stuff you have some knowledge on - which does not include sailing.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Good Friday USA2. I need first address another 505 sailor who posted:

Trader most certainly did intentionally break a rule.
They chose to not power up the SSB and check in as required by the rules. It can not be any simpler.
You guys are excusing a breach in the rules, because the rule is stupid. Well, change the rule first.
Will all the other penalized boats get a corrected result, or just Trader? Why just Trader?

I can't believe you guys are arguing that boats should get to selectively disregard rules.



Frank L. Mighetto

Why not respond to another505sailor over at SA? You pulled his post from there, why not respond to it there? That's right, you were banned. As for the rest of the bullshit you posted, that's all it is: Bullshit.

[101]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Trader most certainly did intentionally break a rule.
They chose to not power up the SSB and check in as required by the rules. It can not be any simpler.
You guys are excusing a breach in the rules, because the rule is stupid. Well, change the rule first.
Will all the other penalized boats get a corrected result, or just Trader? Why just Trader?

I can't believe you guys are arguing that boats should get to selectively disregard rules.


Frank L. Mighetto

Frank, is this true, you cut this from another website (SA) pasted here like it was yours? Well, did ya?

[D'ARTOIS]

Look, like Shife stated, he did. It is another505sailor's post (November 16) in SA- What is "HIS" problem with the TP 52 anyway?

The guy is having a small weekender, powered with a huge outboard. Don't take this guy serious: it's a waist of time and effort.

[barleymalt]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Unfortunately there is no ocean cruising vessel in a TP52. This is because, to exploit the box rules they were built under, the optimum angle of heel is excessive. Even after fitting the vessel with water ballast that can be pumped from side to side (to replace the 15 crew used when racing) prospect of life aboard a TP52 under sail is bleak at best. How do you manage at a tilt of 20 plus degrees?

Promoters of the box rule, such as Jim Teeters, promote a fraud in calling TP52s, TransPacific 52s because this implies that there is an ocean cruising vessel inside a design that has no other purpose than racing. In fact, I find less than 4 feet per crew member to be unrealistic even for ocean racing. WTF were they thinking. They were thinking about all those bulbed vessels of similar kind that they had vested interests in – if even just in the sense that with simple plots on graft paper performance could be predicted and the design specked. These plots allow everything from motor to sail plan to be easily determined. An amateur yacht designer could produce a TP52 design as good as any now racing.


Frank L. Mighetto

Frank

Since you have done no ocean racing, how do you come by the 4 foot per crew member as "realistic"?. It certainly can't be personal experience. Since you have never set foot on a TP52, or any other high performance racing sailboat, what makes you think you have any credibility whatsoever?. Does ACC mean that there is an American Coastal Cruiser inside?. You are a raving nutjob.

[usa2]

"Does ACC mean that there is an American Coastal Cruiser inside?. You are a raving nutjob."


That is the funniest thing i have read all day.

[the_sphincter]

Frank: The TP52 is on the right, and the mac is on the left. Say a breaking wave hits, and causes both to go horizontal. The TP (or any keelboat) has the big ass keel bulb. This provides a big righting moment to overcome the intertia (to stop the boat from turning all the way over. Think of a spinning log) and also overcome mast's negative righting moment (This is one reason why it's made of carbon, so it has a reduced negative righting moment). The Mac on the other hand only has its water ballast. Once the boat is rolled more than horizontal, this internal ballast will actually work for negative righting moment, causing the boat to roll over completely. At this illustrated situation, there is no force causing the Mac to come back up, and it will turtle. Movelable water ballast is used in racing boats to help flatten the boat. After every tack the water ballast is pumped up to the high side. This is not necessary, it just keeps the boat just a little bit flatter and faster. The Mac's approach to ballast is for convenience. Water ballast can be drained for easy trailering, then you're not lugging the weight of the keel around on the trailer. This is it Frank. You failed at life. Do you realize that just about every single person involved in racing knows about you and your criticisms of modern boat designs? Yes. Very smart people with degrees in naval architecture and engineering and the such. Stop being a dumb fuck. Lock it.

[jam007]

But "the_sphincter" have you taken the secret principle of harmonic lift dynamics into account?

Anders M

[the_sphincter]

No, I forgot. The TP's keel should also be orange, as the orange color increases the double secret probation principles of maximising the the rankine-hugoniot relation. Since the vessels are in a dilatent liquid, the lower critical reynolds number is not in effect until the vessels reach 4th mode. It should also be noted that the critical pressure ratio exists as a value of [(sigma)e/3.941] on any 50hp outboard motor. The value on a volvo saildrive with a folding maxprop is [3.14(rho)(g)]. This lower number for the volvo saildrive also implies that the stability due to the gyroscopic effect of the cavitating propeller will be higher for the volvo saildrive, which is the same motor used in a tp52.

[jam007]

Two notes:
There is also an important pendlum effect as the CG and CB changes with heel. I wish that you make every effort to take that into account when comparing the TP 52 and Mac26x. The Mac26x has a near zero pendlum effect as it has hard chines while the TP52 has an pendlum effect in the order of the fifth magnitude due to its smooth hull.

Since the propeller is cavitating I think it is vital that some more research is made into sine wave propulsion for the TP52.

Anders M