TP52s

[Shife]

Hey Frankie: Check this out.
http://first317.janwil.nl/Mumm30.mpg (link from SA)

It's everything you hate and everything we love. Lightweight keelboats (Mumm 30's), with big full crews (nobody on those boats look like railmeat to me), going insanely fast under sail (faster than your pile can motor), competing at the very top levels of the sport. These are the same kind of guys that race the TP52's. Still want to say these guys are a bunch of poorly trained hacks Frank? Still want to say that big boat programs breed "rail meat"? These guys are at a skill level that you will never attain. Their boats are being pushed to limits that would literally destroy yours. Notice how quickly they recover from a knockdown with full sail area up in conditions that would have you crying for mommy. This is real Frank, these boats are actually planing. We show fact, you show lies.

[fatdog]

There is nothing better than Scandinavian hair-band metal set over extreme Mumm 30 video footage….sweet.

[mholguin]

Noticed the WAKE behind those boats? The only similitude with HIS "planning" Mac 26 is the water. I'm sure he can post a similar video with a bunch of Mac 26 surfing like that, screamingly fast.

Now seriously, I'm still surprised on how you guys keep on feeding this non-sense. In order to make more sense, please include the word "HUMOR: " in front of the title of the thread.

[Shife]

Anyone else hearing crickets?

[mholguin]

THIS is what I want to see a Mac 26 doing under sail...

[jam007]

No they are not sailing! The BIG outboard engines is behind the crew. You can see part of the cover of one of them (the white thing)

No boat can sail faster than a Mac26x its written in the Script (manual?) everything else is just Lies created by the conpiracy of East Coast designers, Sailing Anarchy and the Bush administration...

Don´t you agree Mighetto

[aitchem]

The white thing at the back is the Nuclear Reactor.
Also, they have 2 spare hydrofoils at the mast.

[mholguin]

Maybe this picture was originally a Mac 26, and with some photoshop, replaced with the VO 70....

Could'nt resist....

[the_sphincter]

http://www.wetasschronicles.com/EricssonFinisterre.mpg
here's a VO 70 doing what? yeah, planeing.

http://www.transpac52.org/Video/Pegasus.avi
Since this thread is about TP52's. Here's a video. Let's see a Mac 26X video now...

[jam007]

It´s just this strange thing about Mac26 videos. They do not show the stern of the boat when "sailing"...

[water rat]

Rumor has it that the Seattle area is getting another TP52 to race against Braveheart. The balance of power is shifting!

[Mark 42]

Originally Posted by sailsmall

I hate to say it Frank, but your stupid act is getting old. And now that there appears to be a new freak on the block, you just don't seem to have the same pizzazz. ...and people aren't laughing with you, they really are laughing at you.

Bad news for Frank:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Mark 42

Bad news for Frank:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

Argh see http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...r%20appeal.htm
what planet are we living on? Good to see that true sailing anarchists are appauled. Is is so unreasonable that the game on paper should actually be the game really played? Bad news for all racing sailors. Sigh. A comment on the Volvo70s. First the King of Spain sails his TP52 very little. He does however show up for the Vo70s and the designer/builders have a lot of explaining to do. Like why use carbon on a ram that is low in the boat? I mean seriously, the weight saved there just had to go into the bulb. So what lightbulb was on when that design choice was made?

Back to the grind. Just wanted to say hello. BTW the mighetto posting on scuttlebutt is not me. Its the same thing that happened on the SSSS board. From here on expect my dribble to be signed with my full name. Identity theft is a serious thing.

Oh there is another aspect of AstroTurfing worth mentioning. This is the practice of starting 50 or so websites all of them controlled by the same wrong doer or doers and meant of course to make it look like there is grass roots interest in something like the TP52s when nothing could be further from the truth. Compare and contrast with Mac26x vessels which even today are gettng praise from the editors of Sail Magazine. See page 76 of BoatWorks Winter 2005/6 edition.

Wine tasting Swantown on Saturday. Check out SSSS. Crew and I and boat will be there.

Frank L. Mighetto

[jam007]

"I mean seriously, the weight saved there just had to go into the bulb. So what lightbulb was on when that design choice was made?"

Yes, that's the idea. Putting the weight in the bulb. I know it sounds strange to you but hundreds of years of experience and research has showed that putting weight as low as possible in a sailboat is a good thing.

Anders M

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by jam007

"I mean seriously, the weight saved there just had to go into the bulb. So what lightbulb was on when that design choice was made?"

Yes, that's the idea. Putting the weight in the bulb. I know it sounds strange to you but hundreds of years of experience and research has showed that putting weight as low as possible in a sailboat is a good thing.

Anders M

It has yet to be shown that bulb keels are desirable. In fact Ted Brewer and Bill Luders showed 40 years ago that they were not and Brewer still believes bulbs are foolish. see http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/keeldesign.htm.

The bulbs are an artifact of what I have come to see is poor logic. Designers who have a stable of bulbed designs are able to plot cubics (LWL times Beam times Draft) against displacement. This has predictive value for them. They know which models have been competently crewed to win races and they naturally start thinking of new designs that can improve on what has been done previously. So the logic is to improve on what came before.

Unfortunately, there are so many examples of unbulbed sailers that are faster (think multi hulls, skiffs and retractable foil monohulls) that in order to improve on what came before within the scope of bulbed vessels it is necessary to develop some kind of a box rule that keeps the new design in the bulbed range. We are really chatting about internal ballast in the form of movable water ballast and retractable and movable foils. With a box rule like the TP52 box rules these faster vessels do not need to be plotted or considered for the new design. Hence you get more bulb.

Vincent Riou was unable to fix hydraulic rams used to cant PRB's keel during the 2004/2005 Vende Globe race. They were not carbon fiber. That material shatters and is usually unfixable. The bet was that Riou would have been able to do so. His vessel also had a water ballast failure. The experience of Encover is more enlighting. Her keel fell off!

Golding, fills the water tanks, extends the twin outboard dagger boards and twin rudders and then further stabilizes the boat by reducing sail. In this configuration, Ecover sails at 9 knot speeds (TP 52 planing speeds) to become the first monohull in recent history to ever have finished a major race without the benefit of an external keel foil.

The experience of PRB and Encover should be conclusive regarding which form of ballast is best. Riou's vessel had a center foil that could gybe to windward which meant that Riou could point high to get to better wind and sea conditions and make a better course to the finish line to win. Prior to the race Riou had moved ballast off of the canting keel of PRB by mounting a significantly smaller bulb and thiner foil so that he could add an additional internal water ballast tank (the tank I assume that failed.) He was trying to emulate Geodis.

New fighter aircraft designs are moving anything bulb shaped off the wings and internal for the reason that internal ballast is just faster. The bulbs give stability not speed. Unfortunately since it takes 15 crew to stablize a TP52, it is clear that the TP52 hull form is inadequate for Ocean Racing. I suspect some form of water ballast might improve them but there may be no point to it. The TP52s are lemons owing to hull form which in a good design provides stability superior to a bulb. The only way for them to win against models even 30 years older is by cheating. This is what Trader has shown us.

Frank L. Mighetto