TP52s - Page 82

barleymalt · #**1216** 10-26-2005, 08:20 PM

[quote=mighetto] Lets recognize that the TP52 is a boat that suffers because it was designed to never capsize. This is as foolish as designing a race car that will never crash. Capsize is a natural part of racing and designing sail boats that do not do so is designing against nature. It is sick and especially so when the boat sinks after capsize. See this and then see the way to converting from Republican.

Frank

You have truly outdone yourself. I believe this is the most dimwitted thing you have ever posted. Congratulations, you bring new meaning to the term idiot. Have you stopped taking your meds? You seem to be rambling more than usual.

Shife · #**1217** 10-26-2005, 08:25 PM

We're still waiting Frank. Still want to say you weren't banned from SA?

mighetto · #**1218** 10-26-2005, 10:14 PM

Defender

The TP 52’s ARE not designed to capsize. This is just like very other keeled sailboat out there – a capsize only happens when the crew screws up (Name one keel class that is designed to capsize – here’s a hint there is none).

Let me try again. Capsize is not only a function of crew but also of nature and design. The propensity of a racing boat to get into a death roll while down wind ocean racing and capsize is likely related to the use of symmetric spinnakers. IE it is related to boat design for leeward courses. Hence modern designers have moved away from symmetric spinnakers and smart young crews avoid sailing on the big boats that still use them. In fact the captains that force feed spinnaker training on novices are doing harm. Not only are the new designs eliminating them so that training doesn’t help build a career but also the poles for the spinnakers are the cause of many an accident, capsize being just one of them, cracked heads and impaling from the pole itself being others.

The TP52 was the first boat, I became aware of, that was marketed in the modern age as an ocean going sailboat that did not pass the capsize risk ratio. (This has since been corrected by Farr in the latest generation and I suspect in part owing to this thread.) Most modern vessels have been designed for fast capsize recovery. Those that are not, such as the multihulls are designed at least to float when capsized regardless of being swamped. Most if not all of the Swans are built to capsize gracefully, even roll and recover with rigging intact. It is not by accident that they are favored by NYYC.

Stay tuned. More on your post to come. The Church of FOYD is now open. Lets make the discussion worthwhile. Yes there will be some connect the dots to connecticut tonight. But I do not like to get to political. So please no more feedings.

mackid068 · #**1219** 10-26-2005, 10:16 PM

"Stay tuned. More on your post to come. The Church of FOYD is now open. Lets make the discussion worthwhile. Yes there will be some connect the dots to connecticut tonight. But I do not like to get to political. So please no more feedings."
What about Connecticut, now? And, by the way, just because something doesn't pass a capzize ratio doesn't mean it's DESIGNED to capsize. Perhaps the designers thought the ratio was incorrect or something of that nature.

mighetto · #**1220** 10-26-2005, 10:51 PM

Defender

You can knock down a TP52 and pin it there just like every other keel boat out there. As to the weekend – I was in the US but back east racing Stars and not out west so I did not race in Seattle.

Thanks for the invite to join SSSS but I am already a member of a couple of yacht clubs and have a hard time serving as a productive member to those (as RC, Jury, PC chair, committee member, etc – one East & one West).

We have a large star fleet at SSSS. Sudie Parker has even promised to purchase one. Yea that will never happen. She even hates the Flying Tigers. Did you see them dismiss her on SA. Tell us about the Tripp 26 Sudie. Ha Ha I love the anarchists.

The Stars are a great boat to unlearn the incorrect ways of the big sail boaters and I have recommended them to my Oposition (note insider joke here.) Andrew Kerr contradicted the moderator at our last meeting. The moderator was trying to get those of us with small sailboats to crew on the big boats. Kerr made a big deal out of the fact that those who learn to sail on small boats are worthwhile on the big ones but the big boat trained are worthless as sailors because they must unlearn before any hope of becoming competent in the future. Unlearning is harder than learning but I believe the Stars to be upgrades from say a Tripp 47 or any of the big boats which I define as over 45 foot in monohull.

You may want to join SSSS just to keep up on our Star fleet. These are the older hulls, many woodies, collected from all over the west coast. Have you not seen the press on the SSSS fleet of Stars. There have been several articles. I think it the perfect boat to transition from a big boat back to a true sail boat. There are about 30 iStars in our club. Do check them out at the start of summer.

Can you really knock down a TP52? I would not have thought that with the lead mine they carry. I suspect this is owing to their excessive optimum heel angle and the amount of sail carried.

One thing that Kerr told us is that main sails are not designed to be reefed. He claims this is because he himself has designed main sails. However, I have yet to find more than one racing sailboat in the Pacific Northwest without a main that can be reefed. I suspect the lack of training in mainsail reefing on the big boats is a mistake as is the notion that racing sailboats can be designed with some kind of an understanding that reefing the main is not necessary.

What is your take. And do you think actual sailors in the future can benefit much from actual sailors of the recent past. My take is that the trend is smaller sailboats and that this will continue for the next 50 years.

mighetto · #**1221** 10-26-2005, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mackid068

"Stay tuned. More on your post to come. The Church of FOYD is now open. Lets make the discussion worthwhile. Yes there will be some connect the dots to connecticut tonight. But I do not like to get to political. So please no more feedings."
What about Connecticut, now? And, by the way, just because something doesn't pass a capzize ratio doesn't mean it's DESIGNED to capsize. Perhaps the designers thought the ratio was incorrect or something of that nature.

Do any of us get paid to post? Lets be certain to say so if this is the case. I do not. But I am fed and sometimes the feeders want me to expose the audience to some notions of conversion. So consider this an advertisement. Read it and lets get back to boat design. I feel bad about the connection though Rhode Island. So those of you who hope to see Rhode Island rise again, as I do, may want to skip this post.

Harry helped a Rhode Island company get a Texas Lottery contract. She did so owing to the help the salesman gave in getting a prominent individual's son from Connecticut out of his Vietnam obligation. The sales man later became Lt. governor of Rhode Island and the son, the president of the United States. The failed system of patronage that we see in US sailing is the same system out of Connecticut that has brought us the nomination to our Supreme court.

This confirmed today by AP out of AUSTIN, Texas

Harriet Miers let GTECH keep its contract because one of its lobbyists helped
President Bush get into the National Guard in the 1960s. Miers, whose confirmation
hearings begin Nov. 7, chaired the
3-person Texas Lottery commission from 1995 to 2000.

The Senate Judiciary Committee, which will hold hearings on
Miers' nomination, recently asked GTECH Corp., the Texas lottery
main contractor, whether it would object to testimony from
Littwin about allegations in his 1998 lawsuit against the complany.

GTECH spokesman Bob Vincent said Wednesday.
Littwin, the lottery's second executive director, was fired in
1997 after just four months on the job. He sued GTECH, saying it
took ``illegal, unethical and coercive steps'' to get him fired
because he was asking too many questions about the company's
contract with Texas.

He claimed GTECH kept its contract in
exchange for former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes' silence about how he
helped Bush get into the National Guard to avoid service in
Vietnam. Barnes was a lobbyist for GTECH from 1991 until 1997.

I note that Bush backed out of his suspension of the Bacon Act.
But the suspension of the Jones Act is still in effect. That gets us
back to the maritime and our beloved blog on TP52s.

I wonder who lost thier jobs over speaking truth on TP52s. I know
Little Man Hansen, husband of Tripp Gal, went after mine. Farr International
and Carrol Yachts were forced out of business, perhaps owing to
being vocal. We are neither Ds nor Rs here. I do hope we can agree
that our enemy is out of Connecticut and sponsers both Ds and Rs
politically and a system that rewards keeping quiet over competency
and decency.

sailsmall · #**1222** 10-26-2005, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighetto

...
What is your take. And do you think actual sailors in the future can benefit much from actual sailors of the recent past. My take is that the trend is smaller sailboats and that this will continue for the next 50 years.

My take is that you are a freak of nature. And if you say the trend is to small boats, then my money is on the big ones.

Your freakish ass was BANNED from SA!

mighetto · #**1223** 10-27-2005, 12:32 AM

Defender,

If your starts are collision prone - hell man that’s racing, that’s why we sail by the RRS and not COLREGS (one is designed to get boats together one to keep them apart) – no amount a VHF chatter is going to solve this. If beiing close to other boats scares someone then yacht racing may not be their sport.

Actually, the RRS make it very clear that the Sailing Sport is not a contact sport. You need to re-read them. But I do not blame you. This is a common misconception.

I have long speculated that for those who are not carefull readers or complain bitterly about Dave Rose and the direction US Sailing has now taken (away from big boats) think bow sprits are like jousts that can be used to intimidate. It is one of the characteristics that I dislike about the recent past designs. Even the J 100 got rid of them. But note that any small amount of research on the design of sailboats during the age of sail will demonstate that a bowsprit, like weight on a keel, was considered a way of correcting deficiencies in sloop designs.

Even SSSS knows that the sounds are not official:
October RC Report
I. Racers Alert !!!
There will be an additional warning sound signal, preferably a gun, with no flag one minute before the first starting sequence begins. It
needs to be remembered that flags are the only official commands given by the committee boat and sounds are merely given to attract attention.

Oh I suppose I need to disuss this at some length. SSSS currently is debating this topic. The future Commodore of the Olympia Yacht club has taken up the debate, which was originally and correctly identified as one of Frank's platforms. He and one of Tripp Gal's crew are supporting the platform.

To explain more fully, A PHRF director, I suspect, started a thread under my name on the SSSS board, shortly after it was restarted. This is the same thing that happens at SA from time to time. My spys alerted me to this and I contacted both the PHRF Director and Commodore Decker. The PHRF Director will denigh that the contoversial thread ever was started under my name. It now has the name Guest attributed to it. I politely trapped him in the lie at a Performance Sailing Meeting. This Director and a former PHRF Director attend virtually all the Performance Sailing Seminars that discuss rules because it is becoming well known that the unwritten rule is that you never protest a boat that has a current or former PHRF director aboard. I had expected the entire thread to be removed. But instead and I suppose for political reasons it remained. PHRF NW has to feel the welcome heat of IRC.

Race management benefits when the course can be cleared prior to a race. The visual signals and the course itself are not known until right before the race start. Hence there is collision potential a plenty. US Sailing in its goal to grow the sport, which is also the SSSS goal is rejecting out of hand arguments to prevent race management by VHF radio. As Commodore Decker likes to state ITS A GOOD THING. I bet it was Decker who played that great gag on me invloving Martha Stewart Living. Well I will never know, but it is stories like that we are all after in this sport. Not stories of colisions.

It is good to see the smaller clubs start to catch up to national events. I do find it odd that SSSS chose not to switch to the 2005 rules till September however. I did find your rant against web posters as a violation of RRS 2 as funny - I presume this was a satirical piece (if not you may want to talk to your chief judge at SSSS).

Because of poor stewardship of PHRF NW in the form of allowing Sudie Parker to rate sailboats by Jim Teeters VPP (I suspect) SSSS now represents over 500 sailors. We really are the most happening thing in sailing right now in the Pacific Northwest. You are correct, being the last to switch to the 2005 rules was a personal thorn in my side. I had planned to broadcast starts by VHF regardless of the hasbeens, which is my right under the 05-08 rules. US Sailing wants broadcasts. They are good for the sport and attract newbes to it. The head of our protest commitee is the same "little man" that Sudie Parker labled while I was chartering in the Galapagos. Have you seen the volcano photos. The goats are toast. They evacute tortus. Lightening Rod is a former MacGregor Classic owner, a fact that gives me much pleasure as does his multihull boat building. He has regained his balls from Tripp Gal and is posting regularly on the SSSS site. It is a good thing.

sailsmall · #**1224** 10-27-2005, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighetto

Actually, the RRS make it very clear that the Sailing Sport is not a contact sport. You need to re-read them. But I do not blame you. This is a common misconception.

No one is saying that you *****. You're too stupid to read plain english.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mighetto

I have long speculated that for those who are not carefull readers or complain bitterly about Dave Rose and the direction US Sailing has now taken think bow sprits are like jousts that can be used to intimidate.

It's DICK Rose you imbecile. Is the rest of your diatribe as absurd as the beginning? I can't bring myself to read it.

Buc · #**1225** 10-27-2005, 12:39 AM

Frank --

You know nothing about me. My wife and I laughed when you suggested I try racing Stars; it's what I did for many more years than you've been sailing. Along with Lightnings, Flatties (now Geary 18s), Snipes and at least a few classes you've yet to hear of. Her wish was to sail her own Star because her father and godfather were world class Star sailors in the 1940s and 1950s. Having me along wouldn't be the same for her.

As for boats being designed to capsize, that's exactly what happened to a Mac 26X on Lake Champlain with disastrous results.

mighetto · #**1226** 10-27-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailsmall

No one is saying that you *****. You're too stupid to read plain english.

It's DICK Rose you imbecile. Is the rest of your diatribe as absurd as the beginning? I can't bring myself to read it.

Oh come on. Have you noticed how the use of the word ***** is no longer acceptable on Blogs that atract Republicans. This is owing to my posts. Minions have picked up on it. No one is saying the word ***** anymore becase the ***** can always respond with

I am a ***** like the President of the United States.

See how the connecticut game works.

The President was called a *****. Bush is a member of skull and bones which was fonded in connecticut. Its a fun game isn't it. Lets get a libation and continue shall we? What happened to that Canadian Official who called Bush a *****. Oh yea, she lost her job. The bonesman know no borders.

mighetto · #**1227** 10-27-2005, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buc

Frank --

You know nothing about me. My wife and I laughed when you suggested I try racing Stars; it's what I did for many more years than you've been sailing. Along with Lightnings, Flatties (now Geary 18s), Snipes and at least a few classes you've yet to hear of. Her wish was to sail her own Star because her father and godfather were world class Star sailors in the 1940s and 1950s. Having me along wouldn't be the same for her.

As for boats being designed to capsize, that's exactly what happened to a Mac 26X on Lake Champlain with disastrous results.

Bill, you have just gained the rank of gentleman. My hat is off to you. In all the years we have been dock mates you have only grunted at me, well except for email. I drink this Cruisin Rum in your honor and in honor of the crew of Oposition. The Lake Champlain myth is what Jim Teeters' testimony, and Tripp Gals' starting of the Future of Yacht Design thread on Sailing Anarchy was all about. Jim Teeters, in his role as Director of Research at US Sailing, was a potentially formatable expert witness in the case. But the case was never about the Mac26x. Rather it was about drunken boating on the forth of July with 11 aboard while firing rockets from the bow hatch. Teeters' testimony on the Mac26x was distroyed by Taylor during the trial and in fact the judge would not have allowed Teeters to testify if not for his change in opinion from his deposition.

Originally Teeters went on record that drinking might have been a contributing factor. To be allowed to testify in the court case he had to change that written opinion and did. His reasons for doing so likely are related to the TP52s. Seahorse International clewed us into this. Teeters was also the technical advisor to the US delegation to the Rule Working Party (RWP) and supporter of TP52 design concepts. The RWP rejected Teeters Principles and this rejection issued the age of movable ballast sailboat design. It is my position that Teeters wanted US court case records to be referable by the US deligation in arguments for LPS requirements and hence it was imparative that he testify against a movable balast design, that being the Mac26x. There are 5000 Mac26x vessels with an enviable safety record for any vessel - in fact there is no better safety record to my knowledge. Lets not ignore that. Now do not tell me there is a problem with Rating Murrelet this year. That was last year's battle. Argh!

Join us at Longbranch for the Holloween Party or at the fuel dock when we arrive at Elliot Bay prior to Seattle's Big Boat event this week end. Tell me about Sudie Parker for I recognize that until she takes up golf she will always seek to do me and all centerboarders harm.

You all realize that a retractable keel, like on a Melges or Flying Tiger or an S2 7.9 is a centerboard do you not. A centerboard is a form of movable ballast. See this and see the future. The NYYC doesnt favor retractable foils for nothing.

sailsmall · #**1228** 10-27-2005, 01:53 AM

All right then. You're an imbecile.

And your imbecilic ass was bounced out of SA!

mighetto · #**1229** 10-27-2005, 02:30 AM

Defender

Frank - RC's have been doing VHF broadcasts for well over 10 years. This is nothing new - but the VHF does not replace the flags it simply a courtesy broadcast. The Farr 40’s did not start this Race Management and RC’s did – in FL that would be Premier Racing (Many of the race officers that serve / work for Premier are from one of my clubs). What’s Barry got to do with it – Renne is the class manager?

As to the Tripp 26 how can I help - what do you want to know?

Tell me about Barry’s connection to it. I take it you are NYYC as is Barry. Then I want to discuss the master plan involving the ½ TP52, which is of course a 26 footer. And there is the conversion of TP52s to IRC boats which helps me with a bet involving the total number of them at the end of the year.

Frank – I am dealing with you. I am correcting for errors, half truths and lies. Whether you chose to accept the help is where your errors become lies.

Well just post only what you believe to be true. This is not a forum of debate. There are other places for that.

I do not lie or tell half truths. I do have seven years of heavily reviewed and critiqued material debunking sailing myths however. Lets dance as equals. There is much to benefit.

As to Sat. and seeing your Mac 26 – I’ll have to pass as the Lloyd Phoenix is this weekend. However – bring yout PC (pocket cruiser) to FL in Jan. and let the world see how you go. Hell I’ll even see if I can call a Friend at FLYC and put you on the line with the TP 52’s – I would not recommend you repeat the start that was posted earlier or you will end up doing penalty turn for the first 30 mins of the race (and by that time the 52’s would be just about out of sight for you).

Keep up the good work. The fun thing about sailing in the US is that we are not competitive internationally. I expect that those who are not unlearning, by getting into Stars as you are are hopeless and that the newbes have a greater chance of success than those US keel boat trained who have been racing for decades and can only appear to be great by racing against similarly poorly trained US competition on win/lee bouy courses. This is what excites newbes to the sport.

There are few experts in things that are new and movable ballast is considered new. The recognition that the US is not great at sailing (and other things) is new.

You can see a Mac26x at Block Island. They are everywhere. But do not get confused. These are good race boat trainers, along the lines of dry Tasars. I get a kick evertime someone compares them to a race boat. And yet, the first time you plane you start thinking wow. What are those keel boaters thinking.

You don't lie? Why then do you keep claiming things as facts that have been proven to be incorrect? Own up and apologies and you may learn something – if your sailing career is to go beyond beginner this would help.

Still trying to find a back door to post on SA I guess …….Yo

No I do not do that. Hacking is the worst of our modern society. Let the good folks at Sailing Anarchy be. They will find a groove on their own. Check your facts by contacting Sailing Anarchy’s operators directly. Untill you do that you should not spread rumors. I have several bets going on. One that involves posting on SA. Do not think poorly of me. I am but a messenger. There is no need for leaders in true anarchy.

The rum had me drifting off. The church of FOYD is now closed. We dream of Big Boats on courses yet to be determined and Larry's AC boats which we hope to view over Thanksgiven. Huzzah Huzzah - Trick or Drink Good night all.

dumbass · #**1230** 10-27-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote: