TP52s

[skinny boy]

Lies again. You know well that the Koch Cup RC did not compete in in 2006. You know this and yet you post the lie anyway. You know that RC left the AC program long ago and had nothing to do with the Koch Cup but you had to lie anyway. You are compelled to through out ridiculous claims as fact then act surprised when people call you a liar.

I think you are incapable of telling the truth. I don't believe you have ever been an expert witness and I do not believe you have permission to spend your work hours on the Internet while charging time to the state of Washington. You are stealing from the people of the state of Washington. You are using a resource that is intended to help the homeless, infirm and disabled and using to deliberately tell lies in an area completely unrelated to the contract you are billing hours against you are a cheating, stealing weasel of a person. There is someone who is not getting healthcare because the DSHS is paying for Internet rather than medical care. You are making that Internet bill higher than it has to be and as such are denying money to programs that could provide healthcare to children and infirm. You are the lowest form of person.

Feel free to state sources for any facts to contradict the statements above. My sources are the DSHS budget for 2005 whichs shows they have to pay for Internet access and assorted IT services. The bigger that budget the less they have for other areas. Either that or there has to be more taxes collected, which means you are taking money from the citizens in order to spew your lies and that is also misappropriation and waste of government resources. Either way the fact that you willing and knowingly do this makes you the lowest form of person. No wonder your club voted you out of office.

[Glenn]

Like I said, I won't get into it with you. I will correct one thing. There was a fatality in SF Bay and Mentor, OH off these boats when they rolled. Go to the USCG and find their data to look this up. I read newspaper reports of each (on the paper's website) which is no longer available.

Stick your head in the sand as long as you like. That capsize you referred to is further proof that the boats go upside down unintentionally.

Good by.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

More BS and double talk from king wingnut - the TP 52 have nothing in common with IMS or IOR. Origionaly the TP 52's used the IMS measuring tools to verify hull compliance (untill the remained of the rules could be drafted or locked in) - this does not mean that they are IMS boats. Russel is highly valued but JK, Paul, Kenny and others are not?

Sorry Frank TP 52's are evolution not regression - just because the fleet wanted to keep things simple and extreemly fast does not change this fact..

Do all the research you like but Rosebud wins and TP 52's go 1, 2, 3

Tasers and Mac anything do not compare to I 14's, which much like the TP52 you have never sailed (and by the looks of your knowledge level never could).

First to finish and first overall will most likley never be the same do to the new generation of Maxi's (1990's forward). Although not getting the win (went to am Areodyne 38). The 52's Finshid 1-2 in Jamacia also more than 7 hours ahead of a modified Turbo SC 70 - does it bother you to be wrong (this far wrong) on almost everything?

TP 52 Defender, how COULD you? How could you mention Tasar and Macs in the same breath.

That's the most insulting thing that ever happened to a Bethwaite design. I'll keep it from Frank D Bethwaite, knowing that someone referred to "Tasers and Macs" in the same sentence may well be the last straw for him.

A writ for defamation will follow unless you promise to NEVER put Tasar and Mac together again. No jury would save you after such an insult!

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by CT 249

TP 52 Defender, how COULD you? How could you mention Tasar and Macs in the same breath.

That's the most insulting thing that ever happened to a Bethwaite design. I'll keep it from Frank D Bethwaite, knowing that someone referred to "Tasers and Macs" in the same sentence may well be the last straw for him.

A writ for defamation will follow unless you promise to NEVER put Tasar and Mac together again. No jury would save you after such an insult!

Sounds like a cry for mighetto and Sailing's Progressive Internet. But I have to keep it short. I am trying to better my last place finish in the SeaFair 6K, which runs tomorrow and need the medics to give me the ok.

We should all aspire to be sailors of Sydney. Lets compare the Mac26x to Cone of Silence. What a great showing for your city. To bad about the TP52 not following radio procedure and hence the hour penulty ruining the 1, 2, 3 finish. But it brings up a point. The race game that we should want to play is the race game that is on paper and not a game of patronage. The boats that crew should be drawn to are the boats that are operated first for safety and second for competition rather than the boats operated by the "connected." The rules on paper say so.

This radio thing is a particular thorn for South Sound Sailing Society. We specifially override the RRS regarding VHF equipment. It is one of the sacrid cow pies that I stepped into last year when I tried to research the why of it and remove the override from our handbooks. A former PHRF Director insists on racing without radio (or cell phones) and no one will file a complaint or fix our club rules because he is connected. His J80 is reported in frequent trouble both in the printed press and dockside and frankly all of us would rather he buy a hand held. I think Tripp Gal is his daughter Thats a gag. But owing to Swiftsure you have to wonder. What is the reluctance to use the radio?

Best I can tell the argument is that if you get in trouble that is your doing and you shouldn't bother the rescue crews or your fellow racing sailors but rather go down with your ship. This ignores the fact that any vessel that sees distress must by law render aid and it makes crew prisoners. I tell crew to make certain they have a cell phone with them if considering racing on the J80 and have even talked to Cingular about a dead spot on South Puget Sound. The crew taken prisoner aspect of this is a good reason for radio checks. The term "crew failure" is new to me. We use to call it mutany but you have to wonder what the hell was going on with that TP52 that has all sorts of reasons why they failed the radio check rule.

Any way. Seafair this week and Air America at Giggles in about a week. I think it is the same weekend as the Thuderbird Rondezvouis on Lake Union. August 6. the Giggles Improv Comedy Club is about a mile from my Seattle office. You should look for the Mac26x Anarchy T shirts.

[usa2]

Trader had electrical fires which is why she could not call in through the SSB radio, however apparently they called in via sat phone but the RC still penalized them. Dont go criticizing them about that, because they still finished despite the fires, while if you and your Mac26 had an electrical fire the boat would probably melt before anyone could do anything about it(and i dont think anyone would do anything about it).

[mighetto]

Trader had electrical fires which is why she could not call in through the SSB radio, however apparently they called in via sat phone but the RC still penalized them. Dont go criticizing them about that, because they still finished despite the fires, while if you and your Mac26 had an electrical fire the boat would probably melt before anyone could do anything about it(and i dont think anyone would do anything about it).

Oh come on. Boaters - even sailors help each other. But you have to wonder, were these electrical fires reported to anyone during the race? If they were so serious as to have impacted radio use, perhaps Trader should have withdrawn.

We had this great presenter at our club. He paid money for the return trip from Hawaii to Seattle just to get to that spot that is as far away from land as you can get on planet earth. His vessel had an electrical fire on its third attempt. The previous two resulting in returning to Hawaii and for different reasons.

The families of the crew were not informed by radio of the electrical fire because a vote was taken by the crew and they all agreed that they didn't want to worry anyone and a third return would mean most of them would be flying home owing to work schedules. It was reasoned that since one of the crew happened to be an electrical engineer, there was a good chance the problem could be fixed in route. But I doubt this was a secret vote. IE a proper vote where one negative would have meant returning to Hawaii, a refund of the fees paid for those chartering and loss of income for the captain.

And you bet the families of the crew were upset big time after the fact as would be the life insurance carriers. There was also a university involved and I am certain the board discussed this big time. Because of the electrical fire, the fuel guage didn't work and naturally the boat ran out of gas. Fortunately she was able to sail the last 100 miles. But these are unnecessary risks and poor decision making. Shore crew likely would have set the boat back to Hawaii but if they had not at least they could have been reminded to send the captain to check the fuel.

Trader's situation was likely not as the above. What I object to is the whining about the one hour penulty when I think she should have been rejected from the race completely. This is the same kind of thing that sent 66 sailors into the water during the Hobart. During a race - the decision making capabilities of the captain and crew have to be questioned.

Let me point out now why secrete ballots are so important for both a proper society and for a race boat. You do not get sound decision making with what I call group grope - voice vote. The preasures to conform to what the leader wants are just to great. But regardless, shore based decision makers should be consulted and kept informed. Trader and her crew should be happy no one is protesting the light penulty. They should not be complaining. A lesson was likely learned and hopefully it will be discussed more fully in print.

[Shife]

Frank, stop posting misinformation about Trader. You have no idea what you are talking about. The only ones bitching about the time penalty are uninformed ****** like yourself. I have personally met some of the people involved with Trader and I would trust their judgement any day. The crew was in no danger. YOU have nothing in your background that qualifies you to question the captain and crew of Trader. You have not and never will sail in a TransPac. You have not and never will step aboard a TP52. You are out of your league. Shut the fack up Frank.

[mighetto]

Trader had electrical fires which is why she could not call in through the SSB radio, however apparently they called in via sat phone but the RC still penalized them. Dont go criticizing them about that, because they still finished despite the fires, while if you and your Mac26 had an electrical fire the boat would probably melt before anyone could do anything about it(and i dont think anyone would do anything about it).

My My how there is hate for these superior to TP52 mac26x sailing machines. What I suspect you are refuring to is the required use of inboard Diesel engines on the TP52s where as the Mac26x secondary is gas. What you forget to think through is that an outboard engine and the gas itself is stored outside of the vessel. Hence the fire potential isn't nearly as great as it is for an inboard. You are correct about one thing. Fiberglass is one hell of a burning thing - it is a petrolium product after all.

Murrelet gets a safety inspection every year and we were asked about our safety sticker on Wendesday by one of the crew of a J92. This is something power boaters are more aware of than sailboaters, I guess, but for the price of listening to a lecture on boating safety and authorizing an inspection anyone can get the sticker.

Last years lecture taught my crew and I that while fiberglass does burn very well, you also have all the sea water you want to cool a fire to the point that it will not and your extinguisher can work to put out the gas fire.

Sometimes just having the owner aboard is a safety hazard. One day Coutts may explain that. But when the owner cares to much about winning or finishing and comes to think of the crew like any other piece of replacable equipment there is a safety problem. It is my main objection with owner driver classes.

[Shife]

Stop smoking crack Frank. Gasoline is far more volatile and dangerous than diesel. Just because your boat runs on gas doesn't mean that it's safer. It just means you have a cheap boat with a oversized outboard.

[mighetto]

Frank, stop posting misinformation about Trader. You have no idea what you are talking about. The only ones bitching about the time penalty are uninformed ****** like yourself. I have personally met some of the people involved with Trader and I would trust their judgement any day. The crew was in no danger. YOU have nothing in your background that qualifies you to question the captain and crew of Trader. You have not and never will sail in a TransPac. You have not and never will step aboard a TP52. You are out of your league. Shut the fack up Frank.

Take a deep breath. Perhaps I am thinking globally to much. Let me chat locally. Wednesday was hunt the Mac26x day in the Secretary series. (there are photos) I thought we did a great job of avoiding the connected by starting late but right after a mark a certain vessel captained by one of Tripp Gals crew decided to teach us a lesson by bearing down on us. I dropped the outboard, as planned, and told him I would not be protesting while getting ready to fire the engine up. I then got the somewhat unexpected shut the fack up Frank comment. This reflects poorly on the sport because I think we all were carrying greeners (crew from evergreen college). Naturally a PHRF director was aboard the name calling boat. This man is connected.

The vessel right behind the S2 7.9 asked me directly if I was really racing, and later it occured to me that, if I had protested, the S2 7.9 would likely have done turns and this second boat would have bettered her.

After completing the race, we were swaping stories with the other captains and I discovered that another one of the connected - a fellow that had been Secretary and Assistant Race chair had called for room from a competitor who had established his proper course and had right away. He likewise did not protest.

It is shutting the fack up about these kinds of things that creates the system of patronage driving good people from the sport. I may never sail a Transpac. But I will sail a Swiftsure. These same fellows will be there and hopefully they will be playing the game that is on paper rather than this game of connections.

[mighetto]

You may now add Fred to the list of those able to charge Frank with liable (and he just may).

Is he the fellow that pushed Scot Tempesta (editor of Sailing Anarchy) in the water? If you do not have a license to practice law, you have just put your own family's wealth at risk. Chat it up anyway. It is this Cone of Silence that is killing our sport.

FRED = Facking Rediculous Electronic Device.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

You may now add Fred to the list of those able to charge Frank with liable (and he just may).

Is he the fellow that pushed Scot Tempesta (editor of Sailing Anarchy) in the water? If you do not have a license to practice law, you have just put your own family's wealth at risk. Chat it up anyway. It is this Cone of Silence that is killing our sport.

FRED = Facking Rediculous Electronic Device.

None of that last post made any sense. Stop typing, stop talking, just stop Frank. And what the hell is wrong with the Cone? You were praising them the other day, now you denounce them? Get a damn grip on reality man. You know nothing of any topic you've tried to bring up in all 50 some odd pages of this pathetic thread you've created.

[mighetto]

TP 52 Defender

Quack Quack Quack

Stop blowing smoke about legal stuff. The Sailing Sport is international and you have to go through all the commitees set up for the sailing sport BEFORE you go to a court of law. There are so many of these that I doubt any post that is even marginally on track will get any one in trouble. Giving legal advise without a license however is another mater.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Pacific Fog

An utter fabrication and a most outstanding lie

Sean, I have more. The sailors in cruising class have figured out that those who are connected prefer to have clean air to work with. That means getting rid of all those in cruising class (which they rairly participate in) So the game is to get the committee boat to shorten the course for just the cruising class vessels - send them home in effect even when there is wind to bring them around once twice three times and more my lady - damn upwind downwind courses are boring.

The fabrication Scot came up with and made certain to tell me after falk words - I suspect on advice from the PHRF Board Director - is that I should have been flying a spinnaker on the down wind leg. If mine were flying his boat would not have been able to charge me. But lets be realistic. I was being hunted. I knew it - so did anyone who follows my posts.

This is all a great fabrication. Nonetheless: It was a great evening of sailing. Only Scott got mad. But we really were trying to stay out of his way. I didn't expect any one in cruising class to finish owing to the wind conditions. This was one time when the committee boat did right by shortening the course only for those of us in cruising class.

As it was, we were very surprised to get a finish gun. I would have motored out if not for the comment about are you really in this race. It was done in an encouraging way.

[mighetto]

None of that last post made any sense. Stop typing, stop talking, just stop Frank. And what the hell is wrong with the Cone? You were praising them the other day, now you denounce them? Get a damn grip on reality man. You know nothing of any topic you've tried to bring up in all 50 some odd pages of this pathetic thread you've created.

You know I keep trying to shut it down. Look, I have conceded that the TP52s are not as pathetic as I had made them out to be. Then we get this Trader news. I mean chat pathetic. If you have been following then you know about CE Marks.

Any used boat that is brought in for racing is exempt from the (most often presented as absolute) restriction on importing a used boat not put into service in Europe prior to 1998. See http://www.conformance.co.uk/CE_MARK...boats_sea.html. However when Trader is retired from racing, her designers expect her to have a life as a cruising vessel. Without the mark, she has to be dumped in the US because no one in Europe will want her.

The information on Trader is even more interesting when you know that Mac26m cruisers get completely rewired for the EU markets. This makes it easier to get the CE Mark. This electrical fire on Trader is so relivant. Lets say it is not a design issue but rather an installation or maintenance issue. So what - all three, design, installation, and maintenance are all part of the race game.

Regarding Cone. I am repeating myself here but it is a rewrite:

In 1938 a 27 footer named Common Sense III had a problem prone race. That prompted organizers to require boats competing in the Transpac to be larger than 30 foot with crews of at least four. I suspect the name of the boat angers many even today because there really is no reason in the modern age for the restriction.

By the 1950s boats as small as 23 foot were shown to be ocean worthy and the minitransats racing today are that size. In 2005 common sence for the most part did prevail when Cone of Silence a 31-foot canting keel sailboat came from dead last to finish first on elapsed time and second on corrected time in Division 3, of the TransPac. However, being required by race rules to carry four across a wide expanse in such a small vessel is not reasonable when you consider the amount of gear required and that the average crew size on a modern passage maker is two.

For the TP52s to find life after racing as a cruiser, they should be able to be operated like a MacGregor 65 - with a crew of 2. Is that even remotely possible? I say pathetic. What say you?