TP52s

[mighetto]

"SA is no longer a TP52 supporter" - care to support this with something (like Facts!)

Oh hell did I just sell a TP52 add for Sailing Anarchy? Editors usually support their advertisers. But then advertisers also pay the going rate to the editor's press. Show me the add! It is a good theory. We advance in science by coming up with a theory and then looking for facts that disprove it. I did not intend to portray this as a fact. Happy now?

As sailboats go you do know that your vessal does not qualiy as fast - right?

17 MPH under sail. The manufacturer claims this. Thats the kind of kiss-my-arse claim you want your designer and manufacturer to make. It is probably the kind of claim only a designer who is also the manufacturer can make. The Melges speed potential probably never was met because the designer and the builder were different companies. This means the designer doesn't control all aspects of the build; the builders cut corners and as in the case of the EU built Melges, there is a quality issue later preventing true sailing performance. The Mac26x has always been marketed as a performance cruiser. Until you get these basics down you will not see the Mac26x cruisers under sail passing you.

Thats almost as funny as claiming that the Mac 26 has movable ballast (remember on and of it is simply ballast - only side to side in a controled maner)

The movement from side to side on some water ballasted vessels is the result of design rules limiting the total amount of water ballast that can be carried. Usually these vessels also are limited in where the water ballast tanks are placed so that the tanks behave like rail meat might. The type of ballast we are chatting is called inertial ballast. PRB ballast if you like. Owing to the Mac26x this is the most extensively studied and accepted form of water ballast. Movement is simply on or off the boat. The rotating keel can be used to move weight forward and aft if crew are not doing their jobs. Solid ballest is used by the mini-transats for ballancing side to side on vessels that do not have movable ballast otherwise. This isn't allowed in PHRF races however.

[mighetto]

Speaking of Internet Bullies - Frank qualifies (with regard to sailing)
The Wannabe

Let it go defender before I start chating J-80 Hasbeens. Remember rule 14 is in effect.

Frank Mighetto
Member SSSS
and one hell of a fun lover.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

It was you who wrote this: "Designer Going Bankrupt ... Farr International is no more"

What the? I most certainly did not write that. I did write the words designer, going, bankrupt, Farr, and International in various posts. This is very poor spinning.

Read posting no. 615 in this thread.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

Read posting no. 615 in this thread.

Hey learn to "Cite". I mean really try to pay attention to your betters as I do it is Cited

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...&postcount=615

I don't see how this supports your spin. I do see how an improper citation does. Anyway, lets do continue with the good of the TP52. We are big boys here right - well not skinny boy. What happened to him?

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Speaking of Internet Bullies - Frank qualifies (with regard to sailing)
The Wannabe

Let it go defender before I start chating J-80 Hasbeens. Remember rule 14 is in effect.

Frank Mighetto
Member SSSS
and one hell of a fun lover.

Where the hell do you come up with this stuff. Rule 14 is NOT in effect. You are in a internet forum, not on the racecourse. Do you even know what rule 14 is?

14 AVOIDING CONTACT

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room

(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room, and

(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage.

From the 2004 RRS. (I know it's 2005, but I had this one handy)

Please explain to me what the hell this has to do with anything you've said here.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

So much is wrong with owner driver.

For once, you're right. You own your POS and you drive it. That's wrong!

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Hey learn to "Cite". I mean really try to pay attention to your betters as I do it is Cited

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...&postcount=615

I don't see how this supports your spin. I do see how an improper citation does. Anyway, lets do continue with the good of the TP52. We are big boys here right - well not skinny boy. What happened to him?

I only write what I believe to be true. Hey - where did I read this?

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

[b] The rotating keel can be used to move weight forward and aft if crew are not doing their jobs. Solid ballest is used by the mini-transats for ballancing side to side on vessels that do not have movable ballast otherwise. This isn't allowed in PHRF races however.

Rotating keel? You must be referring to the centerboard that allows your floating chlorox bottle to be trailered. It is not a "rotating keel." This just further shows that you have no actual knowledge of yacht design, physics, or anything else that applies to ANY sailing vessel.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Shife

Where the hell do you come up with this stuff. Rule 14 is NOT in effect. You are in a internet forum, not on the racecourse. Do you even know what rule 14 is?

14 AVOIDING CONTACT

A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room, and
(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage.
From the 2004 RRS. (I know it's 2005, but I had this one handy)

Please explain to me what the hell this has to do with anything you've said here.

Shife, pleased to meet you. Sorry folks claimed you were I. There is a certain amount of insider information being conveyed in the posts this last week. You do not need to get all of it. That information really belongs on a forum which was shut down owing to Tripp Gal. See http://www.ssssclub.com/bar.htm. This forum was an SSSS asset donated by a photo jounalist who was made to feel that it competed to much with Sailing Anarchy. The Future of Yacht Design (actually the entire church) was being moved to this site and it was to become a member post only site so that Internet bullys of the kind being delt with today could be excluded. Tripp Gal started the FOYD thread on Sailing Anarchy and anarchists invited me to defend the Mac26x there. The SSSS BB is something all SSSS Members pay for in their annual dues and I was promissed by a PHRF board member working with the photo journalist that it would be operational months ago. What is up with that gentleman is anyones guess now. But in hindsite, I think it best that clubs avoid having PHRF board members control important communication channels like Bulliten Boards, email, po boxes etc. IRC really has them scared stupid.

Sailing Anarchy itself is being taken over by SSSS members in the mean time. It is all a hoot. Has little really to do with design and hence we should not get into it that much.

However, since you asked. The 05-08 rules on collision elliminate the need to call out a protest or wave a flag. This means after a race, when back on dock and damage is "discovered", the protest can be lodged. So a fellow can kick back sail his race and if it makes a diference in results file the protest. I just do not see much bumping going to be happening under the 05-08 rules. Sailing is not suppose to be like basket ball and foot ball where one takes the penulty if it is to his/her advantage. In fact there is a rule that states you are not to take a penulty if it results in a advantage. It is something that I love about the sport - that rule. Hasbeens ignore it and all rules unfortunately. Instead they develop crew that will provide false witness. Then have them sail on other vessels. Its just a theory now guys

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Shife

Rotating keel? You must be referring to the centerboard that allows your floating chlorox bottle to be trailered. It is not a "rotating keel." This just further shows that you have no actual knowledge of yacht design, physics, or anything else that applies to ANY sailing vessel.

In 2005 a new term was introduced to me that avoids controversy over the terms gybing board and centerboard. The new term is ROTATING KEEL. I very much like this term which appears to have been derived from a minitransat swinging rotating keelfoil. See http://www.xs4all.nl/~blvrd/html/keeltypes.html

Anyway I view the mac26x as a twin shallow keeled vessel. This is owing to the dual rudders and the fact that when heeled over 15 degrees she doesn't need what we often refer to as the centerboard and the fact that this foil is so far forward and gypes to windward. The forward position of that appendage make it more rudder like or as the url expains a rotating keel.

MacGregor Yachts claims to have invented the swing keel. These terms are marketing terms. We should not get hung up to much on them. A daggerboard is a kind of centerboard as is the canting keel and swing keel and a retractable bulb keel. It is interesting to note that some definitions of sloop make most sloops out to be centerboarders. I know the waters have been muddied by this post. Try the URL. I ponder that mini site often.

Rotating keelfoil is the term for a secondary appendage rather than a foil that prevents lateral drift or crabbing.

In the Mini Class there seems to be two popular keel choices.
The fixed keel or the swing keel version.
And then there are the more experimental ways to go.
A sliding keel (Rolland, 97), a sliding/swing keel (Rogers design 99) or a 2d keel swinging rotating keelfoil (Raison), a 3d moveable keel (Lucas, 99).

So the term is only about 5 years old. What do you think of it?

BTW, I have long looked forward to naming a Mac26x Clorox. This is a well respected brand in the US and a bottle is a very seaworthy item. What today's posts should show a racer is that one will suck in water for upwind and boucy reaching and blow it out after stablizing the vessel by moveing crew aft and retracting the rotating keel after taking a down wind course. The procedure of running the Genoa sheets in between the shrouds (as instructed in the Owners manual) keeps tacking upwind to a minimum if you allow the rotating keel to self rotate by fully extending it. Partial retraction prevents the rotating of course and the hard side chines, valuable in preventing leeward drift disadvantage the Mac26x in the same way as Tasars, when tacking or rounding.

These concepts should be acceptable to you if you understand that the Mac26m has a self rotating mast. The air foils and the water foils are like wings on an air plane but of course in very different mediums. In fact PRB has a sister ship that was fitted with a canting mast instead of a canting keel. The canting masts were made illegal. I do not know why. In anycase

The only thing preventing the world from seeing the greatest advancement in monohull design in history, during the next 10 years, is owner driver. We are already 10 years behind.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

For once, you're right. You own your POS and you drive it. That's wrong!

Interestingly, Mac26x owners are instructed to get their wives to drive. The notion is that the male has the strength and very little of the attention span required to drive. These boats do not store energy in the form of winches. Only girlymen need that

Please note the smily. Piece man. So much good has come from posting today. And I was so angry yesterday at the new macbash thread.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Interestingly, Mac26x owners are instructed to get their wives to drive. The notion is that the male has the strength and very little of the attention span required to drive. These boats do not store energy in the form of winches. Only girlymen need that

Please note the smily. Piece man. So much good has come from posting today. And I was so angry yesterday at the new macbash thread.

Winches do NOT store energy. Batteries, rubberbands, etc. do. Review your physics.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Shife, pleased to meet you. Sorry folks claimed you were I.

That information really belongs on a forum which was shut down owing to Tripp Gal. See http://www.ssssclub.com/bar.htm. This forum was an SSSS asset donated by a photo jounalist who was made to feel that it competed to much with Sailing Anarchy. The Future of Yacht Design (actually the entire church) was being moved to this site and it was to become a member post only site so that Internet bullys of the kind being delt with today could be excluded. Tripp Gal started the FOYD thread on Sailing Anarchy and anarchists invited me to defend the Mac26x there. The SSSS BB is something all SSSS Members pay for in their annual dues and I was promissed by a PHRF board member working with the photo journalist that it would be operational months ago. What is up with that gentleman is anyones guess now. But in hindsite, I think it best that clubs avoid having PHRF board members control important communication channels like Bulliten Boards, email, po boxes etc. IRC really has them scared stupid.

Sailing Anarchy itself is being taken over by SSSS members in the mean time. It is all a hoot. Has little really to do with design and hence we should not get into it that much.

#1 No one has ever confused me with you.
#2 YOU are the reason that board was shut down. It was shut down for the same reasons YOU have been kicked out of so many forums.
#3 SA has not been "taken over" by SSSS members. Some SSSS members are registered users who post there and that is it. You were booted from SA for repeatedly posting the same ridiculous crap and not listening to reason. You are doing the same here.
#4 IRC is "scaring" no one. It is a new rule that may be a better fit for some races and organizations, but not all. Your boat will most likely never race under IRC. Look up this years Bayview Mac Race and you may (although probably not) understand.

[mighetto]

It is also cool that the new generation has a capsize risk of under 2. "

- Some how they accomplished this without a change to the rules or without any significant changes, or is it simply that Frank does not know what he is talking about (and has resorted to the "move the goalposts" techniques).

Gad Zooks, I do not know everything. However, I conclude that the first 5 TP52s, the ones with the taller masts built for Atalantic waters , had masts that fell into the rules without significant changes and that changes have been made to those rules. Significant is an adjective that probably shouldn't be used. It might have been significant to some vessels. Changes in social security are not significant either right?

If these are faster than the previous generation there will be proof that seaworthy vessels can be just as fast as those where the designers claim that seaworthiness must be compromised to build a fast buoy racer.

- Speed in the Med has shown Generation 2/3 boats are very close to generation 4. None of these boats have compromised seaworthiness and in fact when crewed by competent teams they are capable of beating larger yachts (and are far safer as the do not load up - it also does not hurt that the TP 52 crews tend to be of the highest caliber)

Excellent. Seaworthiness is a function of the crew and vessel. The seaworthy vessel that docks in San Franciso and discharges her crew, then takes on lubbers for a TransPac, is by definition unseaworthy.

Put roller furling on the bow so the bowmen need not slip into the water so often and Walla (as in the onion). It brings tears to my eyes. So much is possible with common sense.

- You are joking here I take it?

Yes, but I am allowing myself to be convinced otherwise and am being fed some awful marketing facts. No one sees true spinakkers as the future. In fact the new J boats do not see sprits as valuable owing to the asymetrics which give you more down wind points of sail to work with once set. So skills in setting spinakker poles are not desirable and are more of just ways to keep rail meat buzy so there isn't crew failure (mutany) out of bordum in going once, twice, three times my lady around the same buoys on a normal wind day. The new sail fabrics are damaged every time they are taken down. So if you are not the kind who expects God to take down your sails, rollers represent a cost effective way of puting up the most advanced sail fabrics and getting more than a few races out of them, likely several years in fact. And these high quality sails do not heel the boat as much. So, it is likely that a class break of vessels that use only a rolled head sail will be established owing to preasure by the sail manufacturers in pushing these new fabrics. Hank ons are another way of just keeping crew buzy anyway right? And you really do put the bow man at risk of becoming an MOB on a TP52.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

In 2005 a new term was introduced to me that avoids controversy over the terms gybing board and centerboard. The new term is ROTATING KEEL. I very much like this term which appears to have been derived from a minitransat swinging rotating keelfoil. See http://www.xs4all.nl/~blvrd/html/keeltypes.html

Anyway I view the mac26x as a twin shallow keeled vessel. This is owing to the dual rudders and the fact that when heeled over 15 degrees she doesn't need what we often refer to as the centerboard and the fact that this foil is so far forward and gypes to windward. The forward position of that appendage make it more rudder like or as the url expains a rotating keel.

MacGregor Yachts claims to have invented the swing keel. These terms are marketing terms. We should not get hung up to much on them. A daggerboard is a kind of centerboard as is the canting keel and swing keel and a retractable bulb keel. It is interesting to note that some definitions of sloop make most sloops out to be centerboarders. I know the waters have been muddied by this post. Try the URL. I ponder that mini site often.

Rotating keelfoil is the term for a secondary appendage rather than a foil that prevents lateral drift or crabbing.

In the Mini Class there seems to be two popular keel choices.
The fixed keel or the swing keel version.
And then there are the more experimental ways to go.
A sliding keel (Rolland, 97), a sliding/swing keel (Rogers design 99) or a 2d keel swinging rotating keelfoil (Raison), a 3d moveable keel (Lucas, 99).

So the term is only about 5 years old. What do you think of it?

BTW, I have long looked forward to naming a Mac26x Clorox. This is a well respected brand in the US and a bottle is a very seaworthy item. What today's posts should show a racer is that one will suck in water for upwind and boucy reaching and blow it out after stablizing the vessel by moveing crew aft and retracting the rotating keel after taking a down wind course. The procedure of running the Genoa sheets in between the shrouds (as instructed in the Owners manual) keeps tacking upwind to a minimum if you allow the rotating keel to self rotate by fully extending it. Partial retraction prevents the rotating of course and the hard side chines, valuable in preventing leeward drift disadvantage the Mac26x in the same way as Tasars, when tacking or rounding.

These concepts should be acceptable to you if you understand that the Mac26m has a self rotating mast. The air foils and the water foils are like wings on an air plane but of course in very different mediums. In fact PRB has a sister ship that was fitted with a canting mast instead of a canting keel. The canting masts were made illegal. I do not know why. In anycase

The only thing preventing the world from seeing the greatest advancement in monohull design in history, during the next 10 years, is owner driver. We are already 10 years behind.

#1 You DO NOT have a rotating keel. You have a centerboard
#2 Your boat is NOT a twin keeled vessel. It IS a retracting centerboard trailersailer with flip up rudders. These are not performance features. They are there to make your boat easy to trailer. That is it.
#3 Macgregor did NOT invent the swing keel.
#4 "Rotating keelfoil is the term for a secondary appendage rather than a foil that prevents lateral drift or crabbing." No, you are thinking of a canard. Which you do not have.
#5 You do NOT have a rotating mast. You have a fixed, deck stepped mast.
#6 A canting keel, centerboard, and daggerboard, are not the same things. You have no clue.
#7 Until you pony up the coin to buy a boat that has a class rule of owner/driver, it means NOTHING to you. It never has and never will have a effect on your PHRF cruising class.

Frank, it's time to put the keyboard away. Park your boat for a while, and beg a ride on a actual racing sailboat. Keep your mouth shut and try to learn from what is going on around you on the racecourse. Try to learn why it is that fixed keel boats such as J35's outpoint your Mac by at least 20 degrees. While you claim you want to learn, you reject reality and substitute your delusions that make your boat seem worthwhile. Get a damn grip man.

While you're sitting here thinking of more lies Frank, I'm going sailing.