TP52s

[TP 52 Defender]

" It is also cool that the new generation has a capsize risk of under 2. "
- Some how they accomplished this without a change to the rules or without any significant changes, or is it simply that Frank does not know what he is talking about (and has resorted to the "move the goalposts" techniques).

If these are faster than the previous generation there will be proof that seaworthy vessels can be just as fast as those where the designers claim that seaworthiness must be compromised to build a fast buoy racer.
- Speed in the Med has shown Generation 2/3 boats are very close to generation 4. None of these boats have compromised seaworthiness and in fact when crewed by competent teams they are capable of beating larger yachts (and are far safer as the do not load up - it also does not hurt that the TP 52 crews tend to be of the highest caliber)

Put roller furling on the bow so the bowmen need not slip into the water so often and Walla (as in the onion). It brings tears to my eyes. So much is possible with common sense.
- You are joking here I take it?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

What a rambling reply but I will try and help you out some .....

14's are not OD nor have they been in my time in that class (10+ years OD & I14) "These are featured in the film Wind" - The boats in "Wind" where AUS 14's not I14's (There was a difference).

"So I ask the question, is anyone posting here getting paid or compensated in some other form for supporting TP52s?"

- I am not sure what you mean here but I do not work for the class.

The TP52 is not a strict OD class look at the rules again. US Class - Inshore buoys race the owner or Cat 1 rep must drive the start and a majority of the weather leg. No professional drivers allowed. Offshore - Owner or Cat 1 rep must drive the start and 1st 30 Min's then anyone else may drive. Med Class - Pro drivers allowed. To call the TP52 an OD class is incorrect a better phrasing would be it is a Restricted Pro Driver class.

As to other rating class (ie: TP52 under handicap) - The TP52's have raced in IMS, IRC, PHRF, and other measurement systems. The reason for this is simple - they wanted to do other races. Nothing more - nothing less. In fact a TP52 won the Annapolis to Newport race in IRC - It also would have won under PHRF. The boats are not choosing to leave the class they just are trying to race in events that interest the owners and crews. In the cases of the IRC victory - Sjambok probably wanted to race in their "home" waters (Chesapeake Bay).

The rest of your post is a bit scattered so I'll stop here.

By the way Custom race boats are not production boats and never will be - the growth in the TP 52 class is beyond expectations (as is current interest in new boats). With your number the TP 52 fleet has 95% of them actively racing - the production fleet (your numbers) only 20% will ever race and only 10% regularly (Not a racing success by anyone's math)

TP still stands for Trans Pacific - always will and in no way has the class dropped the Pacific from it's list of racing venues. The TP 52 does represent the top of the sport (Fact - no amount of lies or loathing will change that).

Defender, you are almost getting things right. Thank you for attempting to respond resonably. I am a reasonable man. I do hope you will refrain from calling me a lier. Lets enjoy the Transpac race reporting. Perhaps the class will shine. Then again perhaps lack of wind will spoil the show and water ballast will prevail. Perhaps the future generation TP52s will have lighter bulbs like PRB (see http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpos...5&postcount=19) and will also have inertia water ballast tanks. They will always be welome at any PHRF or IRC event, of course. My hope is that so will Mac25x vessels.

[TP 52 Defender]

Lets look at the Frank's libel list:

Jim Teeters
Bruce Farr
Farr and Associates
TP 52 class manager
TP 52 class measurer
Tripp Girl
US Sailing
US Sailing Training Division
ORCA

The owners and crews of TP 52's
And many others

It's kind of like watching a kid with his first bike tell everyone how superior he is to Lance Armstrong .........

Frank I will stop calling you a liar when you stop lying - time and again the facts have proved you wrong and you continue to make the same false stamen's. To intentionally make false statements is a lie (simple is it not?)

Example - You insist that the TP 52 is the same or an offshoot of the SC 52.
This is a false statement and that fact has been shown to you repeatedly - yet you continue to make the same or similar claims.


Yeah Mark I know - but it's a down day for me.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Lets look at the Frank's libel list:

Jim Teeters
Bruce Farr
Farr and Associates
TP 52 class manager
TP 52 class measurer
Tripp Girl
US Sailing
US Sailing Training Division
ORCA

The owners and crews of TP 52's
And many others

It's kind of like watching a kid with his first bike tell everyone how superior he is to Lance Armstrong .........

Yeah Mark I know - but it's a down day for me.

Thats a good Internet Bully Post. Since it is a down day for you and a billing day for me. Let me give you some homework. Chew the fat over it but try to understand what former powerboaters think and why a fellow such as I filters your posts effectively. See

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071101586.html

Even Annapolus thinks Mac26x Anarchy.

[TP 52 Defender]

The TP 52's have decided against allowing water ballast as a class - to add this or TFCK would be against the wish of the members of the class association.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

The TP 52's have decided against allowing water ballast as a class - to add this or TFCK would be against the wish of the members of the class association.

Yea all five that were at the meeting that day wanted that right? So much is wrong with owner driver. Lets assume there were mail in ballots and secret ballots. Should the will of the early owners override that of the new owners? I suspect there will be more owners with vessels less than a year old voting soon. Perhaps their disatisfaction will lead to what Victoria's owner did. As I said, fastest progresson from a design class to phrf of any sailboat. So much work to do. time to do.

[Shife]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Lets look at the Frank's libel list:

Jim Teeters
Bruce Farr
Farr and Associates
TP 52 class manager
TP 52 class measurer
Tripp Girl
US Sailing
US Sailing Training Division
ORCA

The owners and crews of TP 52's
And many others

It's kind of like watching a kid with his first bike tell everyone how superior he is to Lance Armstrong .........

Frank I will stop calling you a liar when you stop lying - time and again the facts have proved you wrong and you continue to make the same false stamen's. To intentionally make false statements is a lie (simple is it not?)

Example - You insist that the TP 52 is the same or an offshoot of the SC 52.
This is a false statement and that fact has been shown to you repeatedly - yet you continue to make the same or similar claims.


Yeah Mark I know - but it's a down day for me.

You forgot about his rape of the SA logo and font.

[TP 52 Defender]

Might surprise you that other than a few racing dinghy's my other boat is a Tiara 30 SF - each boat for its purpose and all.
By the way I believe it's Annapolis.

In no way am I trying to Bully you - just pointing out the fact that you have made several statements (and outright lies either by act or omission) that could get you in trouble (serious trouble). Take my advise - learn to sail and to race (as you claim to be doing), but until you have been on any of the TP 52's you may want to get your facts strait by asking .....

[mighetto]

You forgot about his rape of the SA logo and font.

SA is no longer a TP52 supporter BICT. Some kind of a falling out has happened. I suspect the editor's day job at Air America had something to do with things. In anycase, even I have trouble with what was posted on July 4th. Its an odd radio broadcast. 1090 AM from Seattle to Olympia. Largest range of all the AM band. I can not even get Rush in that range. I think SA made fools of the TP52 advocates. Good Job Anarchists.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Might surprise you that other than a few racing dinghy's my other boat is a Tiara 30 SF - each boat for its purpose and all.
By the way I believe it's Annapolis.

In no way am I trying to Bully you - just pointing out the fact that you have made several statements (and outright lies either by act or omission) that could get you in trouble (serious trouble). Take my advise - learn to sail and to race (as you claim to be doing), but until you have been on any of the TP 52's you may want to get your facts strait by asking .....

Defender, it may surprise you that many power boaters sail I-14s and dinghy's such as your Tiara 30 SF. Wish more power boat designers designed sailboats however. There is no valid principle supporting the notion that a fast sailboat can not also motor fast. Lunch with a client. I am out of here.

[TP 52 Defender]

"Yea all five that were at the meeting that day wanted that right? So much is wrong with owner driver. Lets assume there were mail in ballots and secret ballots. Should the will of the early owners override that of the new owners? I suspect there will be more owners with vessels less than a year old voting soon. Perhaps their disatisfaction will lead to what Victoria's owner did. As I said, fastest progresson from a design class to phrf of any sailboat. So much work to do. time to do."

You ask me to quit calling you a liar and two posts later you lie again.

At the last meeting where alternative ballast methods where discussed there where 12 owners and 7 perspective teams who where allowed to speak but not vote. Again it is NOT AN OWNER DRIVER CLASS (see Frank the liar discussion). Each owner gets to vote, and only owners can vote so no outside influences from designers or sail makers can "hijack" the class. All of the owners (including those not yet sailing) have decided to stay with the current class rules. Victoria's owner decided that the boat was not up to speed and too his/her TP 52 and made it into a Custom 52 CK (Rumor has it with little change in overall speed). To believe that this is true for all of the current TP 52's is a LARGE jump in logic Well the Breeze is up and it's a beer can night - time to race, you know actually sailing rather than talking about it (or making up facts).

I was not even going into Copyright issues - thats a different list

[TP 52 Defender]

"SA is no longer a TP52 supporter" - care to support this with something (like Facts!)

As sailboats go you do know that your vessal does not qualiy as fast - right?
Thats almost as funny as claiming that the Mac 26 has movable ballast (remember on and of it is simply ballast - only side to side in a controled maner)

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

You forgot about his rape of the SA logo and font.

SA is no longer a TP52 supporter BICT. Some kind of a falling out has happened. I suspect the editor's day job at Air America had something to do with things. In anycase, even I have trouble with what was posted on July 4th. Its an odd radio broadcast. 1090 AM from Seattle to Olympia. Largest range of all the AM band. I can not even get Rush in that range. I think SA made fools of the TP52 advocates. Good Job Anarchists.

What the hell do TP 52's have to do with my post? YOU directly copied, altered, and infringed upon the SA logo and font. What do you not understand about that? Care to comment on THAT statement? SA has ALWAYS rooted for the TP52 class, however, that is all there is to that. SA has no ties to TP52 management or any other aspects of the class. At one time the class was a ADVERTISER, that was it. Frank, if you were smart, you would go back into hiding. It is only a matter of time before you lose everything you have to multiple slander lawsuits. And please, don't bring up that ******** internet bully crap. It's as phony and as full of holes as you are.

[TP 52 Defender]

"...surprise you that many power boaters sail I-14s..." - Define Many please? The number of actively sailed 14's is not the high. Now if you are saying that many sailors are are all so power boater that is a different story.

FYI - "internet terorism laws" is generally used refering to hacking etc to teroristic aims. What has occured here is simply the more informed providing an education to the uninformed.

[TP 52 Defender]

Speaking of Internet Bullies - Frank qualifies (with regard to sailing)
The Wannabe

Motivation: craves respect for being competent and professional despite lacking in competence and professionalism
Mindset: deceptive
Malice: low to medium; when held accountable, medium to high

similar to the attention-seeker
is one of life's chronic underperformers and is best described as ineffectual in everything
craves undeserved respect and attention and will go to considerable lengths to acquire them
hangs around the fringes of a profession
not professionally qualified but claims they are a professional because they sit next to a professional or work alongside or near or in the midst of professionals, or provide services to professionals
lacks the ability, competence and professionalism to be a qualified professional
wants so much to be seen as competent professional person but is unable and unwilling to put in the work to achieve this
is unable and unwilling to apply knowledge gained from experience but instead devotes time and effort to improving skills of deception, manipulation, false claim, denial and projection
may have been rejected by their chosen profession for lack of competence
is spiteful towards and despises anyone who is qualified in the profession from which the bully has been excluded by virtue of lack of competence
is likely to be vilifying the profession they want to belong to or which they're claiming to be part of or which they are claiming to represent
displays a deep-seated envy and jealousy of the professionals that he or she works alongside or claims to serve
harbours a bitter resentment, grudge, distaste and contempt for the professionals that he or she works alongside or claims to serve
is likely to be criticising, condemning, disadvantaging and causing detriment to the professionals he or she works alongside or claims to serve
may seek positions of power over the professionals he or she works alongside or claims to serve, perhaps to facilitate a compulsion to criticise, condemn, disadvantage and cause detriment
is irresistibly drawn to organisations, roles and positions which offer the wannabe power and control over the professionals s/he despises (eg inspection regimes, approval roles, regulatory bodies, ticksheet compliance schemes, political correctness police, trade union official, etc) - and is often described as a talentless jobsworth
when in a position of power associates with and makes alliances with or surrounds him or herself with clones, drones, minions, fellow wannabes, sycophants and brown-nosers
instinctively objects to any suggestion of change, reform, improvement, progress or evolution, but has no viable or positive alternatives of their own
opposes every idea, suggestion, opinion, contribution or reform on principle but has no original, positive, constructive ideas or contributions of his or her own
is likely to plagiarise and steal others' ideas which are then put forward as their own
may place undue emphasis or reliance on an old, minor or irrelevant qualification to bolster their claim of belonging to or deserving to belong to a profession
may claim ambiguous or misleading or bogus or fraudulent qualifications, associations and experience
displays a superior sense of entitlement because they associate with or serve higher performers
emotionally immature
controlling
easily provoked
when challenged is adept at rewriting history to portray themselves as competent, professional and successful, regardless of multiple witnesses and overwhelming evidence to the contrary
quickly and loudly feigns victimhood when exposed and held accountable, often repeatedly and loudly accusing the person holding them accountable of being a bully
when held accountable makes conflicting and contradictory threats and demands (eg demands apology but orders the other person not to communicate with them)
when held accountable makes lots of loud but empty threats (eg of legal action such as libel, slander, defamation etc)
only carries out threats of legal action when in the presence of a superior serial bully, especially a sociopath type
may indulge their jealousy and envy of professionals or those they claim to serve by pursuing vindictive vendettas, sometimes with the help of a superior serial bully, especially a sociopath type
is easily manipulated and controlled by a superior serial bully
female wannabes may be arch bullies (some people might call them puppetmasters or queen bees)
may surround herself with drones of the opposite sex
may exploit some perceived vulnerability in self to ensure drone loyalty
gives the appearance of loyalty to drones but will discard them when they've served their purpose
is likely to have affairs to gain power, status or position

From: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully....htm#Attention

- Frank, this thing at the bottom is called a Cite - it's what people do when they use anothers work. Also informing that someone is engaged in liable is not a threat of legal action.