TP52s

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

If you are implying that this is not a significant event then shame on you.

It was you who wrote this: "Designer Going Bankrupt ... Farr International is no more"

Originally Posted by mighetto

The devil is in the details. Farr Design and Farr International parted on amicable terms according to Barry Carrol. However, yatch manufacturers, designers and dealers have had less than amicable relationships elsewhere in the US. This translates into poor consumer support and it is so bad that US Boating now has a database tracking boat recalls. I am a member of Boat US but haven't figured out the database, which only recently went on line. It is the kind of detail that allowes a design to live or die on a track record.

What on earth has this got to do with Farr Design and their situation?

Originally Posted by mighetto

Oh you are playing devils advocate. Arn't you. The formula penalizes boats with a large beam for there high inverted stability, and light boats for their response to large waves. Values over 2 fail the test for an ocean passage maker. This is such a design basic that you must be busting my chops. see http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/design.htm. The ratio was used for years to discredit multihulls and is the reason the "at least my S*#t floats" term was coined.

CAPSIZE RISK = beam/(disp/(.9*64))^.333 It is a seaworthiness factor derived from the USYRU analysis of the 1979 FASTNET Race, funded by the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (SNAME) . Values less than 2 are good. The formula penalizes wide boats for their high inverted stability and light weight boats because of their violent response to large waves. All multi hulls, some modern coastal cruisers and many racing designs have problems meeting this criteria. A racing design that fails this test can not be expected to be retired as an ocean cruiser.

The retiring of a race design to cruising is why US Sailing is no longer supporting elite race vessels or their designers. It has gone to far. Farr did indeed correct to this ratio. If the new generation TP52s are slower than the old it will be an eye opener. IF not Huzzah - the idea that a cruiser could also be a racer is supported.

I'm not playing anything. Again, your answers and comments don't make any sense at all - they're just ramblings.
I know these ratios and I maintain that not many designers use them in their daily work. I haven't, I don't and I never will - why should I?

[skinny boy]

Copyright infringement doesn't seem to bother Mr. Mighetto at all. He has done it twice on this thread while also commiting various act of libel and or slander against people.

I have a few questions:

1. Do you have medical training and are you certified or licensed to provide medical advice?
2. Do you understand you can not infringe on the copyright or other people without permission?
3. Do you understand that making accusations without substantiation is libelous conduct?
4. Do you understand that the Lady Washington was not the first US vessel to circumnavigate the world?
5. Do you understand that if you are still posting this crap from a government computer over a government network you are violating the acceptable use policy, and committing fraud if you are billing the government for your time?

[mighetto]

Copyright infringement doesn't seem to bother Mr. Mighetto at all. He has done it twice on this thread while also commiting various act of libel and or slander against people.

The above is an example of an act of Internet Terrorism for which we now have the Internet Bully law. It is also actionable by Rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing. I thought everyone knew this. Welcome to the new world skinny boy. Say hello to crank boy, love child of Team kiss me arse

I have a few questions:

1. Do you have medical training and are you certified or licensed to provide medical advice?

I have first aid training and a Masters degree in Health Care Administration. My first business was a string of medical clinics called the Chec Medical Centers which eventually were purchased by Health South, a company whoes president still is shaking off scandle.

2. Do you understand you can not infringe on the copyright or other people without permission?

Enlighten me. We have several books all that quote from other works and use photos. In anycase I take full responsibility and do not see a problem.

3. Do you understand that making accusations without substantiation is libelous conduct?

I post what I believe to be true and identify what has not been substantiated so that we can discover the truth together. Do you listen to Air America? We are truth seakers.

4. Do you understand that the Lady Washington was not the first US vessel to circumnavigate the world?

No, that is incorrect from my knowledge base. Please fill us in.

5. Do you understand that if you are still posting this crap from a government computer over a government network you are violating the acceptable use policy, and committing fraud if you are billing the government for your time?

Of course.

The above is spoken like a true owner-driver land lubber. It is folks like the above that I aspire to send to the golf courses where they can be among their own kind. And yet they are still God's creatures. Address your concerns to

Mighetto & Associates
1260 NE 69th Street
Seattle Wa 98115

We are a member in good standing of the Better Business Bureau. If you are uncomfortable writing me directly you may contact them. This kind of thing has to be done by snail mail. Tripp Gal and her crew have caused me and our Society and the sport of sailing in the US much trouble. Yet some of the crew are retracting their centerfoils now while racing and looking at Flying Tigers. This is progress. Lets have fun today. Lakefair beer garden tonight. I am the one with the Volvo Ocean Racing Hat. I'll buy you a beer if you can show me that you are over 21. You have been flamed. Now don't go crying to your rich daddy and stay off my boat

Frank L. Mighetto
Owner SSSS Murrelet
Mac26x out of Olympia

[mighetto]

It was you who wrote this: "Designer Going Bankrupt ... Farr International is no more"

What the? I most certainly did not write that. I did write the words designer, going, bankrupt, Farr, and International in various posts. This is very poor spinning. But lets do recognize it as the way of the TP52 promoters. May they find power on the golf course; the sea treats fools who can put up sails but will not take them down harshly; they can not be powerful there. "This is the sail I put up until God takes it down." It is a real mantra of the big boat sailors; they are actually proud of that. What fools. No wonder folks at power boat yacht clubs shun them. No wonder designers put twice the amount of ballast in the bulb as needed to save their sorry arses.

I was encouraged that you all got the con Kahn post. Con the King of Spain and the good folks at Sailing Anarchy as well. Then get press from Seahourse international on the great introduction of the TP52s in the med, and how owner driver makes sense (it does not). Only note that even the good writers at Seahourse see 25 boats (many of them still to be launched) as hardly indicating success even if you assume the first launch was 4 years ago and not the first SC 52 (which bankrupted its company).

The expressoin Management by Magazine came owing to P Kahn's own battles with the less and less influential Bill Gates. Borland was Kanhns company and they developed a product called Pardox which blew the pants off any tool Microsoft had (or still has). The product combined something like Visual Basic with a database like SQL Server and a Java like language called Object Pal at a price one tenth of what Microsoft charged. Software engineers immediatly recognized this. But Bill Gates started buying content in the computer press and sending thugs (marketing reps) to government and business decision makers. The content purchase is Management by Magazine. Articles claiming that Visual Basic could produce tight unbloated code (.exe files) failed to mention that this was only if the database is not used and they blasted Kahn's runtime.

Today we recognize the runtime as a virtual machine and see its value in eliminating computer virus problems. Kahn, like MacGregor had the correct technology but not the marketing, spinning skills of Gates or the manufacturers of the J boats.

[TP 52 Defender]

"It is also actionable by Rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing"

No it is not - however you libal may be (just a thought for you)

[TP 52 Defender]

More Frank idiocy - ' "This is the sail I put up until God takes it down." It is a real mantra of the big boat sailors; they are actually proud of that. What fools. No wonder folks at power boat yacht clubs shun them. No wonder designers put twice the amount of ballast in the bulb as needed to save their sorry arses. '

Based on what my limited friend? If this is the case why does the TP 52's inventory have 1 Main (Single Reef point), 5 Jibs, 7 Kites (Average), 1 JT, 1 MHG, 2 Staysails, and a ST. Average sailchanges durring the Jamacia Race (12 - and most of it was DW).

2X the balast? - Based on what .....
More lies Frank?

[skinny boy]

"Copyright infringement doesn't seem to bother Mr. Mighetto at all. He has done it twice on this thread while also commiting various act of libel and or slander against people.

The above is an example of an act of Internet Terrorism for which we now have the Internet Bully law. It is also actionable by Rule 69 of the Racing Rules of Sailing. I thought everyone knew this. Welcome to the new world skinny boy. Say hello to crank boy, love child of Team kiss me arse "

Why don't you go ahead and post the language of the "act of Internet Terrorism".

Here is the definition of libel.

LIBEL - Published material meeting three conditions: The material is defamatory either on its face or indirectly; The defamatory statement is about someone who is identifiable to one or more persons; and, The material must be distributed to someone other than the offended party; i.e. published; distinguished from slander.

You have done this in this thread against Jim Teeters and against this Tripp Gal. Do we need to go quote the statements so you don't have to look them up?

Criminal Law. A malicious defamation expressed either in printing or writing or by signs or pictures, tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, with intent to provoke the living; or the reputation of one who is alive and to expose him to public hatred, contempt or ridicule. It has been defined perhaps with more precision to be a censorious or ridiculous writing, picture or sign, made with a malicious or mischievous intent.

Now we can define it as criminal libel, because your writing is in so much error and has so many things that are by any reasonable measure ridiculous. You are just lucky that Farr, Jim Teeters and others just don't care enough about you to take the time to call their attorney.

It is you who brings the entire sport of sailing into sad dishonor. You picked the wrong person to try and bully on the Internet with your threats of calling me a terrorist. You will have little luck scaring me.

And so you know, taking copyright material from a website or book and reprinting without the permisssion of the author is a violation of copyright law. You did that with the article you stole from another site and reprinted in its entirety and you did that with the font you stole from another site.

I like my position in this debate. These people have done nothing to you. If you have a difference of opinion in the U.S.A. you have every right to voice that difference. However you have been personal and petty in your attacks against people, not expressing a difference in opinion. You have used partial information or simply made claims that are not true and have been demonstrated as such. You have attacked Jim Teeters personally and professionally you have accused him of acting in an unprofessional manner and tried to impact his ability to retain or gain employment in his chosen profession.

All the while you have been using state of Washington resources paid for by tax payers to do this. You are absolutely incredible to think that you somehow have any moral latittude to say anything against anyone. You even would compare taking a one day first aid class and a degree in management to someone who has had years of medical training and has actually practiced medicine under a professional credential recognized by the government. Of course I can see how much better qualified you would be than someone who is actually trained and has studied their chosen profession.

Yes I like my position, bring out your Internet Terrorism act, I will be happy to go before any judge or jury and see which one of us is the bully.

[TP 52 Defender]

Truth update - currently there are 25 TP 52 (Real boats) w 7 more on order. These are boats that are currently racing and have a valid TP 52 measurement certificate or a measurement pending.

There goes Franks guess of 20 by the end of the year .....

[seadrifter]

So I went to your site Frank and found 3 photos that you’re using with out a photo credit that have come form other web site’s, the photos come from places that contain a copyright notice and that on just one of your web pages

http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p09.htm

[TP 52 Defender]

"The Transpac 52 Global Championships will consist of a combination of buoy races, a short sprint race and an 18-24 hour offshore race out towards the Bahamas and back." (http://www.transpac52.org/NewsArticles/050505a.htm)

Kind of kills Franks lie that the TP52 is a one type design .....

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

"The Transpac 52 Global Championships will consist of a combination of buoy races, a short sprint race and an 18-24 hour offshore race out towards the Bahamas and back." (http://www.transpac52.org/NewsArticles/050505a.htm)

Kind of kills Franks lie that the TP52 is a one type design .....

What I stated is that the progression from box design to one design to phrf has never been faster than with these TP52s. Think of the older boats. But I thank the race organizers for not mentioning the Pacific and dropping the Pacific ocean from any race venue. Growing is such a spin, however. On a percentage basis if you have 10 boats and add 10 thats big growth. But in production vessels of 1000 boats only 50 will get racing numbers and only half of those will bother actually racing. There will never be even 50 TP52s. There is still work to do. Lets chat about owner driver.

http://seahorsemagazine.com/newsletter.php

specifically

If you want a parallel then look at a class like the international 14's. It has evolved since the 1930's and had been an owner driven rule with decisions being voted on as to how the class develops by the owners on an annual basis. They make their sailing as expensive, or cheap, as they want it to be and vote annually as to how the class progresses, the majority prevail. Then look at the TP52 with estimates of cost of these yachts between one million dollars, and one million pounds, it would seem excessive, but there are in excess of twenty five boats building, or built, I believe?

Lets do look at the I14s. These are featured in the film Wind. Comparing the owner driver concept of the I-14 with that of the TP52s is rediculous however because the I-14 is crewed by one. I will nonetheless point out that owner-driver harmed this one design when you think of the Moth. The Moth gets all the press today. The I-14 had been rigged for flying like the moths by a designer in the Pacific Northwest, the same one the did MacKee's water ballasted family yacht, I think. But in anycase, the eyes of the sailing world are less on I-14s than Moths. Now what makes any class of vessels with less than 25 worthy of press? It isn't. You have to pay for content to get that. So I ask the question. Is anyone posting here getting paid or compensated in some other form for supporting TP52s? If so do not call me rude for asking. This is new age sailing, Mac26x Anarchy or IRC world, after all. Be brave. Tell the thread if you are being compensated.

Of course the TP52 is the pinnacle in both performance and cost and there are layers below which will need to be accounted for, but it does give us something to go on.

Pinnacle of the ship of fools era! OK it is a guest editorial. Thank God. I was about to fire off a letter to the editor. But wow what a spin.

Wouldn't it be lovely to find a way to come up with a formula that the majority could work with and get this one aspect of our sport going forward?

How about this simple formula. Build the most seaworthy and fast vessel possible. Oh thats the formula of IRC. Thats Mac26x Anarchy. Thats the new age.

The only decision would be to come up with who decides. Should not be that hard should it?

Seems the fastest and most seaworthy is something God decides. But such are the arogant ways of those who need to move into golf. No human can decide this. Hence let the IRC Artificial Inteligence computer do this. BTW, one of the big proponents for limits of positive stability is also a big provider of programs to do velocity predition and generate polars. Should this wolf lead the sheep in the new age. A better question is who should give way. We do not need leaders only common sense. What a great name for a TransPac race vessel.

Oh, and one other thing, wouldn't it be a good idea to see how simple we could make that rule then it would be easy to administrate. The consequences of that are obvious!

The problem has been the use of sailing to teach the sons and daughters of those who would lead using the ways of society now being puked up as scandle. Here is the big thing wrong with owner driver. Say the crew want to quit and purchase their own TP52. Individually this is not possible but as a group perhaps it is. Why should that be prohibited?

It would seem that existing processes are not working so let's try something new. -- David Barrow

No trying now. It is just do or do not. Do IRC. Do get out of the way. Do not pretend things are otherwise.

[usa2]

What the hell is wrong with the TP 52 class, and why do the Mac26 and the IRC rule have to be tied into this?

[TP 52 Defender]

What a rambling reply but I will try and help you out some .....

14's are not OD nor have they been in my time in that class (10+ years OD & I14)
"These are featured in the film Wind" - The boats in "Wind" where AUS 14's not I14's (There was a difference).

"So I ask the question, is anyone posting here getting paid or compensated in some other form for supporting TP52s?"
- I am not sure what you mean here but I do not work for the class.

The TP52 is not a strict OD class look at the rules again. US Class - Inshore buoys race the owner or Cat 1 rep must drive the start and a majority of the weather leg. No professional drivers allowed. Offshore - Owner or Cat 1 rep must drive the start and 1st 30 Min's then anyone else may drive. Med Class - Pro drivers allowed. To call the TP52 an OD class is incorrect a better phrasing would be it is a Restricted Pro Driver class.

As to other rating class (ie: TP52 under handicap) - The TP52's have raced in IMS, IRC, PHRF, and other measurement systems. The reason for this is simple - they wanted to do other races. Nothing more - nothing less. In fact a TP52 won the Annapolis to Newport race in IRC - It also would have won under PHRF. The boats are not choosing to leave the class they just are trying to race in events that interest the owners and crews. In the cases of the IRC victory - Sjambok probably wanted to race in their "home" waters (Chesapeake Bay).

The rest of your post is a bit scattered so I'll stop here.

By the way Custom race boats are not production boats and never will be - the growth in the TP 52 class is beyond expectations (as is current interest in new boats). With your number the TP 52 fleet has 95% of them actively racing - the production fleet (your numbers) only 20% will ever race and only 10% regularly (Not a racing success by anyone's math)

TP still stands for Trans Pacific - always will and in no way has the class dropped the Pacific from it's list of racing venues. The TP 52 does represent the top of the sport (Fact - no amount of lies or loathing will change that).

[mighetto]

What the hell is wrong with the TP 52 class, and why do the Mac26 and the IRC rule have to be tied into this?

Again, I am biased against the TP52 owing to one of their advocates going out of his way to try to make the Mac26x an issue in a drunken boater's case. This same individual also orchestrated the walkout of the US Sailing delegation to the Grand Prix Rule working party where he had likely hoped to also present his now discredited arguments for mathematically derived ocean sailboat design rules called limit of positive stability (of which the TP52s are designed to). His prominant role at US Sailing is the reason US Acredited Keel boat training is worthless in generating a US born sailing athelete that is more than marginally competitive internationally. It is also the reason US Sailing was slow to support ISAF changes in rule 51 and 52 that encouraged the design of boats like the Mac26x and the implementation of IRC.

Keep asking and I will get the connection down to 25 words or less The TP52 "class" can re-invent itself. It is very cool that they are transportable. It is also cool that the new generation has a capsize risk of under 2. If these are faster than the previous generation there will be proof that seaworthy vessels can be just as fast as those where the designers claim that seaworthyness must be compromised to build a fast buoy racer. Put roller furling on the bow so the bowmen need not slip into the water so often and Walla (as in the onion). It brings tears to my eyes. So much is possible with common sense.

[Mark 42]

Go back and read message #2 in this thread.