TP52s

[SeaDrive]

SeaDrive, you must be paraniod yourself owing to coming from Connecticut.

Relevance, couselor?

I have a notion that such a race is what Roger MacGregor had in mind for the Mac26x.

A small example of ascribing motivation to others. This does not even rise to the level of hearsay.

When a boat was launched pre 1950 and floated above her lines, correction was made by adding bilge ballast.

What would be the reason for blaming the designer rather than the builder? Buider errors (and unauthorized builder changes) were common.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by mighetto

She sports two rudders and centerboards and a canting keel. These boats are horrors to the designers on the east coast of the US who just can not get themselves away from bulb keels or fixed foils.

You didn't do your homework very well, migholetto. Attached is a pic of a boat from an East Coast designer, from 10 years ago or so, of a canting-keeled, twin-daggerboarded Open class boat that completed the Aground Alone.

Steve "yes, THAT Steve" Baker

[mighetto]

SeaDrive,

Just because we may be paranoid doesn't mean we are wrong. Is that what you are getting to? Regarding your comment on the builder being the designer I have a story that I like to tell. It is true. But first.

Think about the notion that a circumnavigator should build his/her own boat. Here the the builder and the owner are the same. This is the situation in new experimental aircraft design today. I am not saying it is good or bad, only that there are three strategies in a build. One where the designer builder and owner are separate, one where the designer and builder are the same, and one where the owner and builder are the same. Now the story



My dad is an architect who spent some time singing chanties for folks at the SFYC when he was younger. He once designed a structure with coved ceilings. You know the round curved artful blending of a wall and a ceiling. The builder literally cut corners. My dad came in with staff to hold the builder to the design. The builder appealed to the owner and offered a substantial discount. Bottom line no coved ceilings. No curves. No art. It was hard for my dad to keep interested in the project after that. He had hoped for a showcase structure and had contracted for that. From then on he stuck with churches.

This has to happen between boat builders and boat designers.

Now I recognize that builders have knowledge and that they can possibly improve a design but in all cases, both good and bad, there is loss in learning.

I want my designer to also be the builder so there is no finger pointing or loss in faith in the design and attempts at correction should there be a problem, like the boat not floating on her lines at launch. If that happens I want simply recognition of failure and my money back. While this may be viewed as paranoid it is less so than the boat owner who must also be the builder.

There are variations on this. Larry Ellison would not let his designer come to him with design choices. Designers like to get owners to take responsibility. This is not really fair to the owner unless the owner is also a designer. All Larry wanted was a boat that would either be proven or fail so he could move on. In the end this proved to save his life in the 1998 SH. Can you see Larry going down thinking, gee I wonder if I messed up with that design choice? Talk about paranoid. Being paranoid is what makes him my favorite sailor.

[mighetto]

SailDesign,

I remember the story and yes I know I have homework. Extreme sailing machines have been proving that movable ballast is the future for at least a decade. Both the canting machines and those using water ballast were introduced on extreem sailing machines at least a decade ago. Click on the URL. It is one of my favorites. Steve Baker passed away didn't he? From the URL which I think is from 2000

It might be surprising to many, but the boats are narrower than they were a few years ago. At that time (say six-plus years ago) water ballast was the most common way of adding stability to an Open Class 60. Each boat carried massive water tanks in the broadest portion of the boat, and to add stability the sailor would pump a few tons of seawater up to the high side. Then the canting keel was introduced, and later refined, and now most Open 60s have either a canting keel, or a combination of water ballast and a canting keel.

Does anyone in France mess about with TP52s. They need at least 11 to sail well. The ideal for an ocean crossing craft is 2 because most ocean crossing vessels are crewed by two, one on watch and one off. These solo handled machines are highly automated vessels with sophisticated electronics and shore crews. Yet designers of recreational craft should be learning from them.

[dougfrolich]

Never before have I seen someone so excited to flaunt their own ignorance- Nice job Mighetto- still in first place for biggest boob award.

[mighetto]

Never before have I seen someone so sxcited to flaunt their own ignorance- Nice job Mighetto- still in first place for biggest boob award.

Smiley when you say that DogFrolic

I accept the award as a perpetual trophy to be passed on when the time is right. Boob award is job one.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by migholetto

Steve Baker passed away didn't he?

Sorry to have to inform you that I'm still around. You may want to speed up that homework...

Steve

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

Sorry to have to inform you that I'm still around. You may want to speed up that homework...

Steve

Thank God! - He had me worried there!

I think Frank has a LOT of homework to do!

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

Thank God! - He had me worried there!

Me, too!

Don't worry aboyut it Steve, the mere fact that you are breathing, talking, walking and replying to posts will probably NOT convince Mighetto that you are alive.

Mere facts like that rarely enter his consciousness, he prefers to live in his own special reality.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by 249

Mere facts like that rarely enter his consciousness, he prefers to live in his own special reality.

OK - I know politics doesn't belong here, but still:

Frank Mighetto is a republican!

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by 249

Don't worry aboyut it Steve, the mere fact that you are breathing, talking, walking and replying to posts will probably NOT convince Mighetto that you are alive.

I, Robot....

[mighetto]

Sorenfdk

Thanks for posting. I vote independent but was raised republican and have those tendencies. However I live in a blue state in a blue city (Seattle) and would not live elsewhere. I am married to a very blue woman. We have a red governor, as of this morning. By 261 votes. It is reality. Washington State has never had a recount change the results.

Anyway I found a worthy place for the boob award, on the windward rail of Pyewacket the Maxi that keeps on winning. See the rail attached water ballast. Second photo from the top of the West Marine Transpac photos. I really wasn't worthy of the reward. It is so Disney I think the maxi will work well on on her.

It blows my mind that water ballast isn't more accepted. I mean everyone gets the joke about filling Mac26x ballast tanks with Mount Gay don't they? Well it is an RI joke and perhaps none listen owing to that. Reality bites in RI. The sailing state??? Me arse, not today. Best to stick with foolish museums and archeology and change the slogan to the sailing museum state. Here is a link. Walla, behold the power of reason. the Mount Gay 30 water ballasted race boat.

Now back to the TP52. These rail mounted water ballast boobs are so threatening to TP52 supporters that in ORCA rules they are indirectly forbidden. You can have internal water ballast on the ORCA 40s (none yet produced) but the adjective implies external ballast such as the boobs are prohibited. I think while I am out researching Avenger and Uffa's books at Powel Books in Portland you all should read up on the Transpac. This is a worthy though a bit unfair summary

Designing for the Transpac - Past, Present & Future

The fact that West Marine's owner just built a fuel ballasted sailboat adds more to the story. I think the link makes Bill Lee look like the bad guy which is why I dislike the link. He was likely caught up in all of it owing to bankrupsy and now that he is no longer vested in SCYD, I doubt he is a true TP52 or ORCA supporter. I look for him to resign from ORCA when he takes a position at US Sailing. I think the new US Sailing bylaws may require him to do so.

Chat with you all prior to Thanksgiving. gobble gobble

Murrelet
1999 Mac26x
casting off.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

I vote independent but was raised republican and have those tendencies.

I read one of your postings on the SA Forum, where you said you were republican.
Anyway, go read some (new) books on (modern) yacht design and come back when you know what you're talking about!

Migett outa here!!!! You are a true moron and your idiotic thoughts bring down the industry...