TP52s

Quote:
I was not allowed to photograph the honeycomb material used by MacGregor Yachts. I can tell you it came on a roll and I recall it being white or clear in color.


Sound like they are using coremat to me? It is white, comes on a roll and has an octagonal pattern on it.

If it is clear then maybe they are using bubblewrap? Was it around 4mm thick?

All good quality core materials come in sheet form, not on a roll.

[mighetto]

Sux

I am thinking *****. You are the one being unsportsmanlike and harming this sport. I merely represent the majority of people who want you to either shut your damn mouth or learn to sail properly because you are throwing out a lot of misinformation that some one may believe when reading this.

You represent at best a dwindling group of sailors who favor Windward Leward courses because their vessels look slow on Olympic style courses in comparison to modern designs. Sailing those vessels properly is very different than sailing according to Bethwaite. For example, on a boat meant to plane, falling off in the puff will result in less heel not more. That would be incorrect on an old design that is not meant to plane.

Your opinion that US sailors can not compete globally because they are taught the wrong things about sailboat design and taught to sail wrong is a pretty stupid opinion but it is an opinion you have a right to have.

It is the opinion of P Kahn and R Coutts. I am proud to share their opinions as well as those of Roger MacGregor.

the problem with you is that in support of your stupid idea you insult, defame, and harm people around you.

Not me. I have a sailor's wit or fancy that I do. It can be stinging. My ideas usually are the ideas of others. I do have original thought from time to time. Not as much as I would like. Lets try this one

My postings may save new sailors from crewing on an instrument that is out of tune for the future. Nothing turns off a novice quicker than the wrong instrument. Gather crew for the TP52s from the golf courses. For the good of the sport, leave the 80 million potental sailors in the US that are under 30, and not yet spoiled by US Sailing Accredited training, for recruitment by crew of modern design vessels.

I read sailing anarchy occassionally and have seen some pretty nasty things said about your club and about PNW sailors in general because of your lunacy and arrogant blow hard attitude.

Specifics. Just give me a link. In general I am well respected both on the Sailing Anarchy and Club levels. I have my good enemies. Of course. Tripp Gal and Bubba being the most vocal. Their crew, CB, being more so.

people have offered to help you learn to sail (even sail your own boat) and you have returned their friendly gestures with insults.

What are you babbling about? I always take assistance when it is offered. Are you CB? You sound a lot like CB, Mr Sux. I hope to save CB. Tripp Gal was offered a ride on an I-14. She passed that up. How could a real sailor pass something like that up? Seriously. CB, if you are CB, as mast man on a Tripp, you need to act in a sportsman like manner. The postings here are as much a part of the race game as behavior on the dock IMO. Do talk to your captain about how to procede. But first read the rules of racing. I doubt their kind of training includes that fundamental.

i also recall some people in your area who have said that they will no longer support your club or participate in any of your clubs functions because of your behavior. Are you really helping anything frank?

Those people are now reciprocal moorage partners. If you turn an enemy into a friend do you defeat an enemy? Do not tell Tripp Gal. I have nothing to do with Toliva Shoals. The fact that a former MacGregor Yacht owner represents that race does not mean it is me. It does mean there are former MacGregor Yacht owners in high places. Why rag on them?

really, do shut up . you have irritated, insulted and harmed nearly all those around you with your stupid juvenile behavior.

Harmed? Who have I harmed? 11 owners of foolish ocean crossing salboat designs? It isn't like Jim Teeters who harmed 5,000 Mac26x owners by inappropriately attempting to testify about stability in a drunken boaters case, to possible support TP52s, at the detriment of all movable ballasted sailing machines.

What I post here may actually save owners and crew from harm during an ocean crossing. I may even keep a few more folks in sailing and off the golf course.

The TP52 boats are being marketed as TransPacific but do not pass the Capsize Risk Ratio. Give me a break. US Sailing should be putting out the alarm.

The boats do not pass US Sailing's screening ratio. You have to come to grips with these facts. It appears that only the Spain built TP52s will meet the minimum requirements of SNAME for a vessel worthy of the name TransPacific. Farr corrected those exactly to the SNAME ratio. This could not have been by accident.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by core

Quote:
I was not allowed to photograph the honeycomb material used by MacGregor Yachts. I can tell you it came on a roll and I recall it being white or clear in color.


Sound like they are using coremat to me? It is white, comes on a roll and has an octagonal pattern on it.

If it is clear then maybe they are using bubblewrap? Was it around 4mm thick?

All good quality core materials come in sheet form, not on a roll.

I am pretty certain it was on a roll. The fellow giving the tour made it sound like this was something MacGregor Yachts invented. We know how that goes Thanks for the information. Didn't see any bubblewrap.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by mighetto

...what makes a multihull go fast can likely be applied to monohulls.

Frank, how is the fact that multihulls have more than one hull, applied to monohulls?

[DGreenwood]

You Guys!!! I warned you... Listen to yourself, this ******* has you tweaked...he's got you talking to yourself...Ignore...Ignore...Ignore or lose your cool.
He is an idiot- he is a demon...You cannot win an argument with someone that has nothing to lose..nothing to gain...no ego..no self... no reason to be right or wrong. His grandfather should have been sterilized for the sake of humanity. For Chrissake just ignore the douchbag and let's do other things.
I had hopes for the lot of you, but you are falling prey to the rantings of a complete loser. Come back to me my brothers and let us engage ourselves in that which is of value and will bring satisfaction in the end...let go of this wanker, he is auto-emoting, and verbally "cuffing the puppy" leave him to his self abuse and get on with progress.
You have much to gain by moving on.

Mr Greenwood, I have never seen you get this upset before. He is good at this. Thanks for speaking out. Rich

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Franksadork

He reminds me of the Terminator:

Listen! And understand! That Speghetto is out there. He can't be bargained with! He can't be reasoned with! He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!

You don't believe that? It's true. People have often wondered who the originator of this thread is, whether he works for MacGregor Yachts as a publicity stunt. Some have even speculated that his employer is actually Farr Designs, engaged in some sort of reverse-psychology PR campaign. But the real creator of this individual is Stinkerhead Designs, wholly owned subsidiary of the monopolistic conglomerate Ever-Rude Marine. It's all part of a devious divide-and-conquer strategem, calculated to discourage the sailing community and thwart the sailboat-building industry.

You see, in the year 2054, a new mutant disease devastated the world's vital corn and soybean crops, depended on throughout the globe for its supply of ethanol and biodiesel. The entire motorboat industry was brought to its knees by the resulting energy shortage. As luck would have it, that tragic event coincided closely with the invention of the stunningly innovative planing ground-effect hydrofoil skiff, known as the Smith-Bethwaite Tackable Proa.

The TP 52000* was an overnight success, regularly achieving top speeds of 80 knots (60 knots for the family model). The Junior model, so popular for intramural racing amongst middle-schoolers, did only 50 knots, but this was designed in for safety purposes. There was a flourishing black market for a larger rig that brought the Junior's potential back up to a more reasonable 70 knots. Sales of motorboats everywhere plummeted to near zero.

Burning with jealous rage, the demented motorboat designer in charge of Stinkerhead Designs' secretive Stinkworks development team, the infamous Dr. F. M. Frankenghetto, resolved to have his revenge. Stealing quietly into a disposal bin in back of the Rowbots-R-Us manufacturing plant, the evil Dr. Frankenghetto absconded with one copy of the MacStinko 26X sanitation and animal-control rowbot (The word "rowbot" is pronounced "ROW-bott", although the syllable "bot" is pronounced by some as "bote". X means it's a Terminator and "Mac" means it's the budget model). Unfortunately, the MacStinko 26X had to be discontinued, due to problems that it was much too slow and kept falling over on its side.

After having been judged unsafe, all known copies of the MacStinko 26X rowbot were destroyed to protect the public. However, one copy, the very one that Dr. Frankenghetto snatched out of a dumpster in the dead of night, was defective. In a critical phase of the construction process, the Battery-Operated Optical Brain (BOOB), which controlled the entire rowbot, was irrecoverably damaged. The rowbot was capable of moving around in a drunken, lurching sort of way, but had no ability to do anything useful whatsoever.

But Dr. Frankenghetto was not aware of this fact. Feverishly reprogramming the MacStinko 26X, and hurrying it into a Time Transport Portal, Dr. Frankenghetto sent his ghoulish machine back to the twentieth century......



* The designers of the TP 52000 attributed its success to pioneering work done half a century earlier on a popular weighted-keel Trans-Pacific racing yacht, laying the conceptual ground work for the TP 52000 (and making this report relevant to the current thread ).

Post #199 1st full paragraph. I read him as a unhappy person because he is not accepted by the east cost boating circles. Then he goes into a continious support and detract of organizations on the east coast. It frustrates him constantly, that his is telling us what is being done against us, and we do not thank or appreciate his efforts. 23 pages later, and he is still on a web site speaker box. He can not help us, we must help ourselves.

Originally Posted by Skippy

You don't believe that? It's true. People have often wondered who the originator of this thread is, whether he works for MacGregor Yachts as a publicity stunt. Some have even speculated that his employer is actually Farr Designs, engaged in some sort of reverse-psychology PR campaign. But the real creator of this individual is Stinkerhead Designs, wholly owned subsidiary of the monopolistic conglomerate Ever-Rude Marine. It's all part of a devious divide-and-conquer strategem, calculated to discourage the sailing community and thwart the sailboat-building industry.

You see, in the year 2054, a new mutant disease devastated the world's vital corn and soybean crops....etc.

LOL. Hey. you're good.

Frank just wanted to give you a preview. The following letter is being sent to your club commodore, your PHRF handicapper and director and the President of PHRF Northwest. Since you chose not to answer the last I thought is was time to get an answer to your charge of fraud on behalf of PHRF and the local handicapper.

"Dear Mr. Schutte,
It has come to our attention that Frank Mighetto has been claiming, in multiple venues, to have paid his dues to join PHRF for the last two years. During this time he has never been given a certificate nor has he been listed in the roster of members. When questioned about his membership he claims he has paid each year. If Frank Mighetto has in fact remitted payment as claimed for the last two years then either he has had the worst of luck with the mail system or the handicapper is committing an act of fraud. Since fraud is a serious crime and the reputation of PHRF is at stake, we feel that PHRF must investigate the handicapper in question. Should it turn out that Frank Mighetto did not pay his dues a sincere apology to the handicapper would be warranted and we hope that the South Sound Sailing Society would take appropriate action against Frank Mighetto for impuning the character of a dedicated volunteer.

Since Mr. Mighetto has refused to provide proof of his claim of payment we would suggest checking on his claim of payment. We believe it will provide the shortest path to conclusion of this unfortunate incident."

I would again strongly suggest you show up at the January meeting for PHRF, Frank. You have set in motion things that require resolution and your charges of conspiracy and fraud are heading to a final conflict. It would seem your personal attacks on people may just result in something coming home to roost afterall. If I were the handicapper involved in this I would sue you.

Have fun.

oooooooOOOOO!!!! Frankies gonna get it. Frankies gonna get it.

I was dragging my feet for the upcoming PHRF meeting, but now I have something to look forward to. Frankie gets busted. Sweet.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Read This Frank

Frank just wanted to give you a preview. The following letter is being sent to your club commodore, your PHRF handicapper and director and the President of PHRF Northwest. Since you chose not to answer the last I thought is was time to get an answer to your charge of fraud on behalf of PHRF and the local handicapper.

"Dear Mr. Schutte,
It has come to our attention that Frank Mighetto has been claiming, in multiple venues, to have paid his dues to join PHRF for the last two years. During this time he has never been given a certificate nor has he been listed in the roster of members. When questioned about his membership he claims he has paid each year. If Frank Mighetto has in fact remitted payment as claimed for the last two years then either he has had the worst of luck with the mail system or the handicapper is committing an act of fraud. Since fraud is a serious crime and the reputation of PHRF is at stake, we feel that PHRF must investigate the handicapper in question. Should it turn out that Frank Mighetto did not pay his dues a sincere apology to the handicapper would be warranted and we hope that the South Sound Sailing Society would take appropriate action against Frank Mighetto for impuning the character of a dedicated volunteer.

Since Mr. Mighetto has refused to provide proof of his claim of payment we would suggest checking on his claim of payment. We believe it will provide the shortest path to conclusion of this unfortunate incident."

I would again strongly suggest you show up at the January meeting for PHRF, Frank. You have set in motion things that require resolution and your charges of conspiracy and fraud are heading to a final conflict. It would seem your personal attacks on people may just result in something coming home to roost afterall. If I were the handicapper involved in this I would sue you.

Have fun.

Well this explains recent email regarding yet another measurement of Murrelet's sails. It is Tripp Gal Karma eek! I said I would look into it and I will. Why not discuss this face to face. Toast to the new year at Boston Harbor.

Lets turn this situation into focus on the expression Friends Do not Let Friends Sail PHRF and Sailing Anarchy's continued disparagement of the PHRF rating system, even an attempt to link PHRF with the 100,000 sailor per year loss in the US. That is bunk. PHRF has slowed the disaster caused by the top down Teeter Principles that poluted US Sailing and its training materials and rating tools up until the disaster of the Olympics. Seriously, the worse showing in 60 years in the sailing events at the Olympics. The truth is that PHRF has great potential for movable ballasted vessels and even "sexy" fixed fin bulbed TP52s. The owner of Braveheart is so KEWL to focus his TP52 on PHRF racing. There isn't a PHRF fleet in the nation that wouldn't love to have one of these vessels. They are not necessarily ships for fools when used for buoy racing. Heck I even understand they plane! Surely their owners will want to return to the fast courses and abandon winlee. The samauri sailors may fear them as much as movable ballasted vessels. Change. It is any change at all that is feared.

Jim Teeter's top down influence is found in the progarm used to assist PHRF raters. Fortunately for all of us the raters have found that tool wanting. It is a tool that likely favores the kinds of designs Teeter's likes (winlee's) and discourages modern designs from even trying to race. This sport moves forward by protests. This is a good thing. I have been trying to attract more vessels of the kind I own into PHRF racing. Recently I sent this information around.

In 2003 the PHRF Seattle Regional Sub-Council proposed a revision to the rating protocol to address water-ballasted boats.

It was noted that these boats are able to significantly alter their displacement and stability characteristics by dumping ballast water without penalty. Accordingly, a proposal was made to prohibit ballast water dumping during a race. The proposal elicited much discussion but no Motions. It was agreed that the base rating for these boats should be predicated on their optimum speed potential which is presumed to include changes in ballasted configuration during racing. The Council will continue to monitor these boats and adjust their base ratings under review or appeal if warranted.

This means the base rating for a Mac26x assumes no water ballast and has for all Mac26x cruisers rated in 2003. Furthermore, crews of UPTO 10 are being allowed on craft 20 to 30 foot because it is recognized that additional weight can improve performance on some boats. The 1,400 lbs of water ballast in the X is equivalent in weight to at least 8 crew members.

Water ballast has been recognized in PHRF racing as important in reducing average crew size. The addition of movable external ballast tanks to boats that previously did not have them is addressed as a rating adjustment. Any appendage alteration is also an adjustment. Mac26x owners are not being allowed to lift rudders nor will daggerboarded vessels be allowed to lift - even partially - those appendages. All foils must be fully extended. Given that It was agreed that the base rating for water ballasted boats should be predicated on their optimum speed potential which is presumed to include changes in ballasted configuration during racing, I think rudder lifting which like unballasted operation is specifically mentioned by the designer and manufacturer should be allowed. However at this time a rating addjustment will be applied to our kind of craft, should we operate them as intended in that fashion. We have no problems whatsoever in rating as a class.

There has been a concern that the Mac26x did not include a mechanism for dumping water ballast. This of course isn't true. The manufacturer intended the use of an outboard engine for doing that. Since engine operation will not be allowed during a race, we will be allowed to blow water ballast out using a raft inflator - just like the Classics do prior to trailiering. As movable water ballast comes of age in PHRF racing the Mac26x enters her prime.

******

multiple venues. What a hoot. Well we all have until January 1, 2004 to pay our PHRF race fees. I suppose I will have to double pay just to be certain. Might as well honor US Sailing with my membership fees. The newly reorganized not for profit appears to be on track. Out with the old, in with the new.

Trip Gal style Karma. And I am the one that is suppose to stalk. My boat and crew are the most followed on the west and even possibly east coast

Murrelet
Kiss me Arse Syndicate

[mighetto]

dork - et all

You see, in the year 2054, a new mutant disease devastated the world's vital corn and soybean crops....etc.

Here is the deal. Biotec firms will tell you that the seeds they provide do not produce plants that can reproduce because that protects the local ecosystem. There is also the side benefit that you have to go back to the firm year after year to get new seed. The firm owns the seed and you have no way of making your own. It is that ownership that is objected to by true anarchists. Now please this thread is about TP52s, the good the bad and the ugly. take that other topic up elsewhere.

[mighetto]

Richard Petersen]Post #199 1st full paragraph. I read him as a unhappy person because he is not accepted by the east cost boating circles.

Well I must admit to being 2 separations from Martha. So that would be B list, I suppose. However, I was invited to a wedding Martha's catering firm put on just a year or so ago. For that matter family friends on Block Island just bumped into my dad while he was visiting the Spanish Exploration exhibit at the Seattle Art musium, yesterday. THE BLOCK ISLAND RACE HAS GONE IRM. THE BLOCK ISLAND RACE HAS GONE IRM. I suppose Block Island is also B list. It is said to be the place where you purchase property if you can not get it on Marthas Vinyard. Block Island is RI. My how that must hirt.

Then he goes into a continious support and detract of organizations on the east coast. It frustrates him constantly, that his is telling us what is being done against us, and we do not thank or appreciate his efforts.

I was pushed into this. Read post number 1. It takes a lot of courage to speak out. Folks in RI and the surrounding states are taken off the A lists for speaking out. This translates into same-old same-old group-think designs that have made the US a third world nation when it comes to the sailing sport.

23 pages later, and he is still on a web site speaker box. He can not help us, we must help ourselves.

Huzzah Huzzah. I will say this again. While being crowned king several times now, most recently King Troll, I am not the saviour or king the anarchists seak. Neither is the King of Spain Juan Carlos. We must all save ourselves.

Do you all want to shut down this thread prior to the new year? That would be great by me. It appears that my notions, the notions of Coutts, of Khan, of Macgregor, of Farr's VP, of anarchists, etc have become mainstream. What say? Fifty is an F word. I gladly will step off the box now that designers are being forced to step off box rules There are races to attend to.

For Country, PHRF, and THE PRIZE - Boatdesign.net listed as a Best of Web site in Forbs.

Murrelet
1999 Mac26x out of Olympia Washington
Sail Number 79020

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Skippy

Frank, how is the fact that multihulls have more than one hull, applied to monohulls?

Skippy, you are a godsend. The term I use is multihullism. Multihullism doesn't apply just to more than one hull. It also applies to rotating and canting masts, rigging, sails, technique, light weight, shallow draft, dagger boards, boats that float even if swamped, 15 plus knot speed, etc that have been perfected by the multihull enthusiests.

Look at those roached sails on the TP52s. Now tell me those aren't fun and do not look like multihull sails. Then recognize that the hollow which is allowed in the forward part of the TP52 hull is unusual. It is unusual because hollows are thought to be excluded from box rules specifically to prevent multihull designs because - in the extreme - a hollow becomes a multihull. There is a museum in RI where you can learn more about this. It is in Bristol. I intend to visit it the next time I am in the area.

Background

We have this fellow Ian Farrier here in Seattle. He is a trimaran designer that has been influential in getting multihulls accepted by sailors around the world. The family that owns wall mart also has been influencial and of course the French as a nation have been helpful.

Ian grew up in New Zealand. He was not bogged down by the group think that is making the US a third world when it comes to sailing (and other things but lets not get into that). Instead he sailed Cherubs, which are a dinghy crewed by two. Later he sailed Lasers (really Zephyrs, but they are close to Lasers). My brothers wife's parents (now in their 70s) still race Lasars. They were the French champions for a time. (the Smalls) Anyway When Ian finished his degree in engineering he was smart enough to read Practical Boat Owner and because Trimarans "looked like airplanes" he purchased one. This lead to the folding trimaran mechanism he patented. A fellow in California named Arther Piver, invented or at least takes responsibility for trimarans. He sailed one across the Atlantic. But of course this proved nothing. There is always luck. And the east-is-the-least of sailors ignored them. On the west coast there was progress. Today there are 2,000 Farriar designs afloat on the worlds waters.

Methodology

A designer wishing to follow Farrier should conclude that the success Farrier had in his career can be attributed to, being remote from RI and Connecticut so his ideas could grow, and the TransPortability of the folding trimaran. These are almost trailerable. Roger MacGregor takes credit for developing the market for cruising monohull sailboats that can be trailered. He also built multihulls (catamarans) but owing to the patent, would have needed Farrier's ok before he could make a folding trimaran. Transportability can be viewed as part of multihullism.

Conclusion

Those who first invisioned the TP52s probably intended the TP to stand for TransPortable and not TransPacific.

Recommendation

Stop the hype. The TP52s do not evaluate well as ocean crossing vessels. Can they cross oceans. Sure, but like Piver and later Farrier, that proves nothing because there is always the component of luck. There is potential for TP52s to be good PHRF buoy race boats, even good PHRF buoy race boats on the fast Olympic style courses. Under the incubator of PHRF and given Transportability, there can be occasional one-design and even owner-driver racing. But the desirability of this will depend on market forces. The fewer TP52s launched the less likely racing under a box rule. TP52s, just like all new designs, need the incubator of PHRF. I know this from experience. Of the 5000 hulls launched in 7 years (the most ever in history in this short a time) only 500 Mac26x owners will ever bother with geting numbers on their Doyle sails. Then of those 500 only 50 will ever race. Without PHRF there is scant chance of racing the boats in the style they are intended through one-design within PHRF. There is a much better chance of re-engineering the rating system to support movable ballast and retracting foils. As I posted earlier, this has already started in the Pacific Northwest.

We all be mates, mate. So we should start acting that way. See you on a PHRF race course.