TP52s

[mighetto]

Defenducator

Frank get over your problem with Mr. Teeters and move on. Learn to sail and have some fun (it seems like you may need some). Your delusions about your personal capabilities and those of your day power/sail boat aside - you need to learn a bit more so lets start with some questions:

I freely admit to judging Jim Teeters harshly. In my dreams, he responds to my posts, tells me there are more than one sailing styles, and that neither are dangerous. I am seaking copies of his tapes from the 2002 drunken boaters case.

1. Have you ever sailed for more than 24 hours?

I have made trips in power boats over 24 hours off the California coast. I have sailed (no motor use) at least 40 and probably more miles.

2. Have you ever sailed beyond the sight of land?

On a 26 footer, the horizon is less than 5 miles. This is easy to do. I would say most boaters have been out of sight of land. This is a silly question. A cloud bank, fog, night fall, hell put on blinders and you are out of sight of land. But yes I have had sail up while out of sight of land.

3. Have you ever participated in a race on other than the club level?

Trick question perhaps? You usually have to be a member of a club to race. If you mean have I ever raced in a race that wasn't restricted to my own club members the answer is yes. I have no idea why I am not listed as a member of PHRF. AFAIK, I have paid for the last two years. Is that what you are getting to. I will look into that.

4. Have you ever raced on a boat specifically built to do so?

Yes. This is a good time to mention the notion that in every cruising boat there is a race boat. But Yes unqualified. There are pictures on Sailing Anarchy.

5. Have you ever been involved with the measurement of a boat for a rating (where an outside measurer is required)?

Good God, of course. Murrelet had to go through that.

6. Have you ever been involved with the design, construction or commissioning of a racing yacht as defined in question 4?

Lets get specific here. Any boat that is raced is defined to be a yacht. Read your rules. Generally you want to know if I have been involved with a designer who is interested in producing a racing boat. It is hard not to be involved in some way. I have met with several designers and dealers to discuss what I want in a racing boat. I am a prospect I suppose. I think I am involved with the design, construction and commissioning of racing yachts just by posting here. Do you disagree?

Answer these and we shall go from there.

Yea? Well I feel like I being set up. Well defenducate me. KEWL

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Dutch Peter

Yes, it can be applied effectively on larger hulls than 30 ft, I regularly inspect hulls of 40 50 and 65 ft.

Thanks for chiming in. Fred Detwiler, owner of Trader, a TP52, has been so kind as to publish the web photos from the construction process. http://www.intercreate.com/trader/040311.htm
Where I am rasing concern is in the bracing of the required fixed fin and bulb keel. Perhaps http://www.intercreate.com/trader/040312.htm shows this concern better. The photo Inside the hull with the keel structure mold in particular is interesting.

So what do you think would happen if the vessel were turned upside down. Is there enough bracing to prevent hull flexing and deformation? Fred's boat is meant for buoy racing just like Braveheart. I think they have been very clear that the boats are optomized for conditions running 7 to 20 knots. If the boat were sailed extensively and hard in a race with winds over 20 knots, wouldn't one expect hull flexing and possibly delamination on a boat this size with bracing as indicated in the photos. To protect the investment, Captains are going to have to slow down, are they not?

[mighetto]

Look, all the GP RWP did was reject stability requirements based on mathematics. You still have to show that the boat can be righted after capsize. Now why don't TP52s get tested in a pool like Ocean 70s and Mac26x cruisers. It is likely that in turning the vessel upside down the weight of that bulb keel is going to permanently damage the weak hull. Take this opinion to the bank, or to your TP52 insurance carrier or broker. You will not be selling used TP52s without re-wanding. There is concern. It is not responsible to ignore these concerns.

TP52 Defender

No insurance company will ever ask for a re-wanding - man are you dense or what? The measurement will only be done for hull modifications and measurements. The righting moment test have been done on each and every TP 52 - it is required to measure in for the class.

The righting moment test was done by mathematics wasn't it? I am talking about a pool test.

You have amazed me once again I did not thinks it was possible for you to comment on something you knew less about than sailing but each time you comment on yacht construction you reach a new low. You are the one who is consistently irresponsible with your miss-truths, lies, slander, and plagiarism.

Specifics, you have to give specifics here. I post what I believe. When fed falsehoods, I do correct them. Plagerism?

As to vacuum bagging and molds - used on 12ft skiffs up to boats like V60's (and 70's) RP 85's, and custom projects like Genuine Risk. The frames are lighter and stronger than the joints built by hand lay up (Better bond can be archived since the air is removed and far less resin is required).

But harder to stress point reinforce. Correct? Lets not forget about voids. Easy to correct. I did not know GR was vacuum bagged. Are you certain the hull was vacuum bagged? Mirrabella V used vacuum bagging in the mast but not the hull. As I pointed out, Catalina Yachts vacuum baggs almost everything except the hull!. What Vacuum bagging does in One Design is that it ensures a uniform hull weight among vessels of the same class. Calling a TP 52 a one-design is not as great a put down as calling a TP 52 owner-driven but seriously, bagging makes sence if the intention in the design is to ignore other boats and race only against vessels of idential kind. When you ignore other boats you can build a boat that is slow.

As to the 52 site - never has been an article on hull miss-shaping (don't make up stories unless you know your audience fool).

How about telling us who you are? The article involved concerns with rating a TP52 under IMS and possibly IRC rules. The facts are that the racability of these craft is becoming more and more questionable. The owners might as well start thinking of PHRF.

More Questions:

7. Ever physically been aboard a TP52 or sailed one?

Good God, we are chatting about 11 friggen boats world wide. These are rair birds. I would love to board one. In fact they are so freeky that I suspect you could charge admission so guys like me could get a good lesson on boats designed for fools. They might be popular at boat shows. But not popular enough to recoop financial losses. I do not think any designer or builder has made a cent on a TP52. They are a failed design to be learned from. They are a burdon that may well be the end of some good shops. I would even be checking Dunn and Bradsteet on Farr. This story is so significant.

8. Ever been sailing in winds over 40kts?

Yes. This is also documented on the web. Not by me, a third party describes gusty conditions on and October cruise in. My wife crewed, even took the helm. Single head sail. The manufacurer endorses the vessels for heavy weather racing. The TP52s are not in this class. They are protected water vessels. This is my opjection to the lable TransPacific. Of course if I could board a TP52 I might find the CE Mark and see if they are Category C. Will anyone admit to seeing a CE Mark on a TP52? Even a D marking is better than nothing.

WARNING to ALL who read this thread -
The statements provided here by the poster MIGHETTO should not be taken as fact or used with out verification, his/her ideas are often incorrect and make jumps in logic that if believed could put you safety at risk.

except you are to timid to post your real name. I reserve the right to change my opinion but stand by them. Who will defend defender? Not even defender I suspect.

Frank L. Mighetto.
Murrelet
1999 Mac26x
Olympia Washington

[mighetto]

I used to think the only silly question was the one that remained un-asked, now I wonder.

No you are correct. Thank you for your answers.

Questions

9. How many times have you raced on a boat (any sail boat) over 45 ft in LOA?

My wife and I chartered the Lady Washington for a conference and I have "raced" her. http://ladywashington.org/ What a thrill. Holding the tiller on such a vessel is not to be missed. My sister has a Catalina 42 footer that we take out when visiting Point Richmond. We have raced Beneteau 402s. I have plenty of 62 foot and larger power boat experience? What is your point? I should have started sailing years ago? On this you do not get any kind of disagreement.

10. How many organized races have you participated in that where over 100nm in length or lasted over 36 hrs?

Not a one. Am I now disqualified from chatting about them. Oh wait. participated in? I suppose I participate in the vende globe and mini-transate when ever I post about them. Where are you going. The topic here is TP52s, the good, the bad and the ugly. Can we get back on topic? Have you enough rope to hang me? Look, we are now the most prominant site on the internet for TP52s. 10,000 views, some how. So far the ugly and bad have dominated. I really want to get some of the good about TP52s going before I take off for the Galapagos Islands mid January. At that time my intention is to close the thread. So please. TP52s - what is the good about them?

[mighetto]

Søren Flening

You've been told over and over and over again, but there's just no getting through to you...

Damn it Søren, try again. I am not incapable of learning.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mistral

my god, i can't believe it .........ok, ok, you're right, i promised not to post anymore in this thread, i beg your pardon, i'm reeeeeeally deeeeeply sorry....but....I couldn' resist.....this is too funny ....40 miles....i can't believe...40 miles......probably more......42, 42 ,44....49 ....definitively too funny ...40 miles....that's the amount of miles that childs in optimist do every week during summer in my club........40 miles........ that's absolutely the best joke of the year, Frank i have to admit: you've got a really huge sense of humor....absolutely great !!!! Thank you for being a part of this forum


best regards
Mistral

You are welcome. I do try to entertain and keep things light. Why are folks so serious? How does that attract prospects new to the sport. You can not believe how many power boaters consider all of us, fixed keel boat, movable ballast, or centerboarder, to be utter fools - and even dangerous for sailing. I have the perspective of a power boater saved by this little Mac26x vessel. It is a perspective that while possibly rare has value nonetheless.

[mighetto]

Søren Flening

Frank, Mistral was referring to a powerboat and I was referring to powerboats not having ballast keels. Was that really so difficult to understand?
__________________
Best regards,

Trawlers most certainly have ballasted keels. The more advanced ones have baffled fuel tanks with the fuel serving as ballast. Let me rephrase the big question. I ponder this over drinks almost every week end with anyone who will try to explain.

Take any group of seafaring men. Men who make their livelihoods from the sea. Put them on a bluff over looking a harbor entrance with turbulance and listen to what they will say about the fixed keel boat. They do not understand either. You do not want a lever for water turbulance to flip a boat over with. If a bulb on a thin foil were helpful for stability, then some smart powerboat designer would have put that feature on a power boat.



The above is as close as you will come. Now couple this with the notion that the faster a boat goes the less foil she needs for control and the TP52 distiguishing characteristic, the characteristic that was to make her a fast seller, the fixed fin weighted bulb just looks stupid. I do not appologize to the great experts who chose to challenge me for seeing that. If it is the viewpoint of an uneducated child then it is your job to make me see otherwise. With the canters all the standard arguments supporting the finned bulb fall appart. Outside of meeting some GP RWP rejected mathematical ratio there is no benefit is there? This is just a style that was popular during the last 30 years, at best benign, but quite likely a negative feature that smart purchasers will avoid in the future. .

[mighetto]

TP 52 Defender

Frank - you admit you have little race experience, little to no boat building experience (real world), and no ocean racing experience to speak of. Now the next admission we need is that you know little to nothing about the TP52 class.

Thats it. The parting shot? a whole day of letting out the rope to hang me with and that is it!!! I feel cheated.

I know little or nothing about the TP52 class other than that the two boats analyzed do not pass the capsize risk ratio and are hence not worthy of the term TransPacific.

Your arguments about that are with SNAME and US Sailing not me. This is enough for every reputable dealer to screen the TP52 class out of any kind of ocean crossing work. Any kind. Period.

You would not find a CE on on a TP52 unless you looked in her library - these are not production boats my friend, you must view their paperwork ....

The CE marks apply even to non production boats from my read, and if you use the mold set more than once thats production in my most childish way of thinking. Do visit the libary. Let me know what the paperwork says. I suspect you will find nothing and that worse than that. The owner probably is self insuring the vessel.

Frank I suspect you need no lesson on boat design for fools as you are already a master at being foolish.

Well you arn't helping your cause with that one. Before crewing on any boat, I would want to know that the boat was insured and that it is being used as the manufacturer intended. I would be visiting the library.

As to who I am - that will remain confidential. After hearing from some of the SA boys about you stalking Robert Perry I will stay safely tucked away on "my island".

mystery man. What a fine good enemy you have become. Expect the usual scotch when I track you down. I visit Florida at least once per year and we have made a point of hiting all the "islands". When we meet you can tell me all about your kirate lessons like Perry did. He even sparred with Roger MacGregor. I suppose he wanted me to know that he can defend himself. He invited me by the way - even chalenged me. Hey can you tell me at least that you are not a trophy kid. IE that you are not under 30?

Go to Key West young man/women and ask nicely - If you don't mention your name one of the TP 52 crews may let you take a peek (from the dock - as most of the boats are secretive about certain systems).

Oh my mug shot is well known. But Key West is Mararitaville. Enjoy the sunset tommorow (it is already down today) and toast. We both live to spar another day. I know a little place called Kocomo. Conch chowder and wine from Washington State. There are RI designers moving to Florida. This is acceptable. Any place away from the sailing museum state that is on the water is probably alright. I am curious however. Ocean sailing in your area means you are rarely out of site of land. Kayaks will paddle hundreds of miles and even further all the way to Granada in your area of the world. What makes you think that kind of experience applies on the Pacific? The TP52s should stay in Key west is what I am saying. Concentrate the lot of them there and keep them off the Pacific.

Your immaturity as a sailor has gotten the better of you, gain some bearing, insight, and practical experience - then you may return to ask questions

We all need to grow. I do believe however that in the last 2 years I have gotten about 10 years of sailing experience. Some fellows get 1 year of experience each year 10 years in a row but it is the same experience over and over and over again. We recognize those sailors as the WinLees.

In 10 years if you are still a TP52 supporter I will take my hat off to you. Ta Ta for now. You are always welcome here. This is my thread. I started it. The work will continue for at least a few more weeks. My sailing career is just starting. Yours, if you stick with the TP52s, is just about over. You will be into powerboating or less in about 2 more years. 100,000 sailors lost per year in the US. Is it any wonder? I bet TP52 defender that you already play golf

You think that the Internet gives you some bully pulpit where you can say stupid things and get attention, is that because the wife doesn't put out? Maybe it is because she wears the pants. There is definitely something Freudian here. Maybe it is just the latent homosexual feelings you have for Jim Teeters coming out. Does your wife know you are a homosexual? Why not come out and tell her you lust after Jim Teeters. Keel envy isn't bad, it is a natural thing for people like you. We all like deep keels and you have to learn that some of us have deeper keels than others. Just because you have a very inadequate keel doesn't mean you are less of a person. Don't let you wife's laughter in the bedroom or the taunts of the children in the bathroom at the movie keep you down Frank. You keel although dysfunctional and apparently very small is yours and you should be proud.

Or maybe all this focus on hollows means you really wish you were a woman. Is that the issue, your a woman trapped in a man's body? Is that why you hate keels? Is that why you spend so much time talking about your centerboard "slot"?

When I look at all you have written and your obsession with Jim Teeters and the capsize ratio, which is nothing more than a guideline and has no rules, the only thing I see is a latent homosexual that spends his day thinking about hainv bottom's up so that Jim Teeter's keel can come home. Then you talk about how the keel will fall off or deform and it makes me think you just have a severe case of erectile dysfunction.

Anybody else here see the same thing?

LOL.

I'm starting to feel sorry for all of you. It took a couple thousand posts before folks wisened up in SA and finally deleted their posts and left Franko to stew in his own juices.

That means you still have how many posts to go before you finally quit trying to teach this guy anything?

He won't get it no matter how you 'splain it Lucy. But knock yourselves out if it makes you feel better.

Oh, and TP52defender, good choice on keeping your identity anonymous. I've met Franky boy and he's just as strange in real life as what you see here. I wouldn't want him showing up on my doorstep unnanounced either.

<Cue Psycho music>

It is interesting that PHRF has refused to recognize you as a member. I will be happy to file a grievenance at the annual meeting coming up next month. You are saying that the south sound handicapper is commiting fraud by not turning in your money and that must be dealt with. We can not let that type of thing happen. I am surprised that your club would allow him to continue to be the handicapper. I am sure after he is removed by PHRF things will get better for you. It may even result in a more serious charge at the national authority level and may ban him from any organized participation. The meeting is on the 23rd of January at Seattle Yacht Club. You will want to attend as you will need to provide proof of your claims. I would hate to drag a handicapper through an allegation that can not be supported. I thank you for bringing this to my attention so we can deal with type of illegal behaviour. I do hope this is the only handicapper that would do this type of thing. Look forward to meeting you and helping you correct a very serious injustice.

Originally Posted by -BA-

You are saying that the south sound handicapper is commiting fraud by not turning in your money and that must be dealt with. We can not let that type of thing happen. I am surprised that your club would allow him to continue to be the handicapper. I am sure after he is removed by PHRF things will get better for you. It may even result in a more serious charge at the national authority level and may ban him from any organized participation.

John Martens ain't gonna like this yogi.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Deep Keel

Don't let you wife's laughter in the bedroom or the taunts of the children in the bathroom at the movie keep you down Frank. You keel although dysfunctional and apparently very small is yours and you should be proud.

Maybe it is just the latent homosexual feelings you have for Jim Teeters coming out. Does your wife know you are a homosexual? Why not come out and tell her you lust after Jim Teeters.

Thank you Dr. Keel. Your professional insights are very enlightening.

FaD, thank you for your input also.

Andrew, don't you understand what Spaghetto is? Do you know what a "troll" is? Spaghetto is a troll, everything FaD has warned you about is true. Spaghetto enjoys angering you, that is his purpose for posting. He enjoys angering people and making them feel bad.

[water addict]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Look, all the GP RWP did was reject stability requirements based on mathematics. You still have to show that the boat can be righted after capsize. Now why don't TP52s get tested in a pool like Ocean 70s and Mac26x cruisers. It is likely that in turning the vessel upside down the weight of that bulb keel is going to permanently damage the weak hull. Take this opinion to the bank, or to your TP52 insurance carrier or broker. You will not be selling used TP52s without re-wanding. There is concern. It is not responsible to ignore these concerns.

TP52 Defender

No insurance company will ever ask for a re-wanding - man are you dense or what? The measurement will only be done for hull modifications and measurements. The righting moment test have been done on each and every TP 52 - it is required to measure in for the class.

The righting moment test was done by mathematics wasn't it? I am talking about a pool test.

Have you heard of or seen an inclining test, mighetto?

Originally Posted by mighetto

Specifics, you have to give specifics here. I post what I believe. When fed falsehoods, I do correct them. Plagerism?

Some specifics: maligning designers and boats when it is their profession is not a good thing to do, unless you have hard evidence to back up your claims- and saying that noone is disproving your claims doesn't cut it. Making a statement like the structure will be damaged due to a rollover, strictly because of your opinion, when you have ABSOLUTELY NO BACKGROUND IN STRUCTURES AT ALL is not right dude. Knock it off. How can you have the balls to make such claims? If you don't watch it, someone is going to sue you to shut you up.

Originally Posted by mighetto

from other:
As to vacuum bagging and molds - used on 12ft skiffs up to boats like V60's (and 70's) RP 85's, and custom projects like Genuine Risk. The frames are lighter and stronger than the joints built by hand lay up (Better bond can be archived since the air is removed and far less resin is required).
mighetto's reply:
But harder to stress point reinforce. Correct? Lets not forget about voids. Easy to correct. I did not know GR was vacuum bagged. Are you certain the hull was vacuum bagged? Mirrabella V used vacuum bagging in the mast but not the hull. As I pointed out, Catalina Yachts vacuum baggs almost everything except the hull!. What Vacuum bagging does in One Design is that it ensures a uniform hull weight among vessels of the same class. Calling a TP 52 a one-design is not as great a put down as calling a TP 52 owner-driven but seriously, bagging makes sence if the intention in the design is to ignore other boats and race only against vessels of idential kind. When you ignore other boats you can build a boat that is slow.

Again to specifics: you know not of what you speak regarding vacuum bagging and structural quality. Vacuum-bag process increases fiber to resin ratio, making the part lighter and stronger, and usually of more consistent structural quality. A larger part such as the whole hull might not be vacuum-bagged because of expense. Stress-point reinforce? You are again just exhibiting your ingnorance regarding structures. You're asking for trouble in a courtroom. How do you have the guts to spout off when you have no expertise whatesoever?

Originally Posted by mighetto

These are rair birds. I would love to board one. In fact they are so freeky that I suspect you could charge admission so guys like me could get a good lesson on boats designed for fools. They might be popular at boat shows. But not popular enough to recoop financial losses. I do not think any designer or builder has made a cent on a TP52. They are a failed design to be learned from. They are a burdon that may well be the end of some good shops. I would even be checking Dunn and Bradsteet on Farr. This story is so significant.

Again, you don't show any proof of these maligning claims. This is some pretty negative stuff about folks in the business. You are asking for it.