TP52s

[mighetto]

You are presumed to have sailed around Vancouver Island? You have never made the passage from the north end to the south end on the west side. Without having done that you can't presume to have done anything.

I am presumed to have circumnavigated Vancouver Island by rounding Cape Scott. The deed was done after waiting out three days of gale force winds.

Because you have ADD and don't want to sail doesn't mean others don't. There are those of us who are members of the ironbutts club also, which have made the trip across the country and back more than once on a motrocycle. Because you are not capable doesn't make it any less fun for others.

OK are you one of my crew? You are putting me on are you not? I honor those who ride because they make the best sailors on modern designs. Every movement is correct and the shifting movements make a modern design even faster. It is remarkable. Now put it together. Bike across the nation to crew. transport the boat. Read Lats and Atts.



Do not take my remarks the wrong way.

Because you are not capable or do not have the courage to face the sea or the open highway doesn't make it any less of something. It means you are simple a powerboater and an SUV driver. It means you have no courage or personal motivation to push yourself to be better. It means you have no rights to claim about anything.

No it means I know from flying that those states no one uses - like Kansas (and most of the red states - are boring. There is nothing to see. It is like ocean crossing with normal or less wind. That is what I am saying. It takes courage to face those who disagree. More courage than sailing across an ocean. Do you really disagree?

Shut up and go away. You weary us with your drivel and cheapen this board. I have stayed out of this thread until now but your claims of right because you motored for 4 hours near Cape Scott as having been offshore is humiliating to you and insulting to the others who actaully went around the island unlike you.

Damn, you are good and hopefully you will show up by bike or boat at Boston Harbor for the new years party. But seriously, 4 hours for 70 miles? Think it through. There is no place to get fuel, I hardly own a motor sailor. The boat is designed to carry but 24 gallons.

Are you the fellow at Fish Tail Ail that explained the internal pendulum on the new 47 foot surf boat? Or, are you anarchist? In any case, I intend to save you from the keel boats. Friends do not let Friends Sail Keel Boats Well not motorbike friends. There are better vessels for them.

[mighetto]

Mr Wrong

Now Frank, you wouldn't want to give the readers here the wrong idea. You have motored and/or sailed in the waters surrounding Vancouver Island. You have not circumnavigated Vancouver Island in your Mac26.

Here is the idea I am trying to convey. For a working man in the US there are few jobs that allow one the time to circumnavigate Van Isle. Well you could blast around it in a 40+ MPH boat like in the book One Day At a Time, but why would you want to? Boats that have rounded Cape Scott are presumed to have circumnavigated because the clueless forget that there are boat launches at points that follow in wilderness. Each of the sounds on the chart below, have such launches. They are used for fishing enterprises. I do make the claim of circumnavigation. Eventually I will circumnavigate the island. Brooks Peninsula is where murrelets nest. Can not miss that. We will have the boat transported to where she was pulled this summer, wait for the gales to pass and continue the effort from there. Now that Van Isl has been introduced.



Why haven't TP52s been seen in the Van Isl 360 race. The answer is because while little Murrelet is worthy on the west side, the TP52s are not. In fact it is likely that they can not get insurance for the west side because post 911 that is the fact of life for any vessel over 26 foot. With a 26 footer you can get insurance for these banned-specifically-in-policy waters through your home policy. It is these kinds of considerations that designers need to build into their designs. Mac26 vessels are common on the west side. Mac26x boats circumnavigated both Van Isl and the Queens this summer and Classics have also done the deed. But this will never be considered proof of seaworthiness and design superiority, by those who do not want to see.

So powerboat designers cannot design sailboats or maybe sailboat designers can't design powerboats.

Don't tell my clients will you frank. They might decide to take their millions of dollars away and buy Mac26's.

I won't even start on your technical arguements.

[mighetto]

So powerboat designers cannot design sailboats or maybe sailboat designers can't design powerboats.

Don't tell my clients will you frank. They might decide to take their millions of dollars away and buy Mac26's.

I won't even start on your technical arguements.

Your beef is with Roger MacGregor and not with me. I love quoting him

Don't be taken in by the old adage "you get what you pay for". It is often the inefficient builder's rationalization for his higher prices. Be sure that "what you pay for" is not a builder's high overhead, excessive advertising expenditures, equipment that you do not want or need, unnecessarily complex designs, poor inventory control, lack of well engineered production tooling, or a wide rage of other wasteful business or manufacturing practices. These are of no value to you, but their costs are invariably passed on to you in the form of higher prices.

I do not know for certain but I suspect that the price for a TP52 includes the costs associated with hyping them. That may well include payments by designers and builders for race organization, web sites etc. Seriously when the GP RWP rejected 128 limit on stability calculated by math it obsoleted the design. The boats do not rate well under IMS. Farr is more interested in VO70s now. I can not confirm that the boats were CE marked. Can you obtain ocean crossing or even coastal ocean cruising insurance for them? Outside of racing PHRF, where is the value? They are not good power boats. Where is the beef?

Folks that spend a million expect a decent power boat in their sailboat.

Hey here is an Idea. Use a Mac26x as the dingy for a power yacht. Kind of like Octopus does with her 60+ foot power launch.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

This is what I have come to believe a hollow is.

Take a spoon. Dangle it from the handle into the stream running out of a faucet. If you dangle the spoon so the shape presented to the stream is displacement hull like it will do what your intuition tells you is incorrect. Rather than being pushed out of the stream, the spoon will be sucked in.

Turn the spoon to the other side and you get:



....

Americas Cup rules prohibit hollows. This I understand is what prevents multihulls from competing because the space between the hulls is a big hollow. The effect of the hollow, is like that of the spoon. It lifts the hull from the water at speed.

So what you're saying Frank, is that the boat travels sideways, planing athwartship on the hollow between the hull appendages? Becauses the hollow is the only significant concave region of the hull, the rest is convex. And in order to get the "spoon" effect, the concavity inducing that effect must lie along the direction of flow.

As Herreshoff himself pointed out (see the Herreshoff thread for a link), the purpose of the hollow is to increase initial stability and decrease wetted surface, not to act as a planing surface as the boat is propelled through water with the stem on one side and the stern on the other.


And for other posters/readers on this thread, here's a few snippets from a british forum that had a similar experience:
http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/sh...=5&o=93&part=3


Re: Motor Sailer - Macgregor 26X

mighetto (regular) 28/09/2004 22:59
... The Mac26x is a serious ocean sailboat. There are a couple of things to realize. First, no one outside of a race, will find any boat of any racing size on the
ocean comfortable.
...
There is nothing in a monohull under 40 foot and under 180,000 US that compares. The designer/ manufacturer understates the boats capabilities. I know this is hard to believe but the test of time and rejection of notions of stability by international ocean racing design rule bodies to allow movable ballast as the Mac26x (and no other Macgregor model) puts the boat in her prime.


ShipsWoofy (regular) 28/09/2004 23:54
Oh god I just stopped reading it in the end. It started badly, wandered off to cuckoo land and well.....
I wonder what the word for TOSH is in the states.
How can you call a boat with the bog in the middle of the saloon area a nice place to be for weeks on end, even animals do not crap in their sleeping and eating areas.
Who is this philosopher?


tome (regular) 29/09/2004 09:09
I've never seen such drivel posted. I'd guess the closest you've come to ocean sailing is talking about it in a bar. Only a certifiable lunatic would consider that the Mac26x is a serious ocean sailboat.
I can't be bothered to say anymore.


boatless (regular) 29/09/2004 09:46
I'm telling you - this bloke is barking mad. Don't reply, he just keeps going. Has had his IP address blocked on another forum yesterday.


Note to forum staff:
"Has had his IP address blocked on another forum ...."

[mighetto]

"Has had his IP address blocked on another forum ...."

More lies. Neither Sailing Anarchy, nor any other forum have blocked me. These forums have battled hackors and others to make certain that I can post. If you want me to post on Sailing Anarchy, just ask. All readers, please follow the URL and read up. There is good stuff posted by me on YBC. If you have comments please remember the topic here is TP52s and not me or my ride. However the concerns some have over Mac26x cruisers are similar to concerns that can be raised about TP52s. I will check in tomorrow.

Take Care all and
Happy Holidays.

You lying dog. You have no idea what you are talking about concerning insurance. Post your policy here. Show one company that insures you to go anywhere you want and encourages you to race. You will need specific language from the policy. Insurance is not going to accept the liability for racing and they sure are not going to accept liability for the Mac26 to leave the site of land when it is specifically called out by the manufacturer as a day sailer nd weekender. You are simply lying and in doing so are being irresponsible.

How much did is cost for a rider to my insurance to do the last Transpac? It was $80 for the trip. I have been living aboard and racing boats since 1986 and can say without a doubt you have no understanding about boats or insurance.

As far as rounding Cape Scot making you qualified for anything, is simply a joke. You have no time at sea please quit trying to make out like you do.

[dougfrolich]

Your Award is in Frank

Originally Posted by mighetto

I am presumed to have circumnavigated Vancouver Island by rounding Cape Scott. The deed was done after waiting out three days of gale force winds.

and

Originally Posted by mighetto

Eventually I will circumnavigate the island.

Frank,

You should get a better understanding of the english language. It could help your consulting practice which I understand suffers from the same type of errors.

cir·cum·nav·i·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sûrkm-nv-gt)
tr.v. cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ed, cir·cum·nav·i·gat·ing, cir·cum·nav·i·gates
To proceed completely around: circumnavigating the earth.
To go around; circumvent: circumnavigate the downtown traffic.

Your words, comments and ideas are worthless. The more you open your mouth (by posting here) the more ignorant you appear.

How can you keep posting? Everytime you say anything it is ridiculed and people degrade you on a daily basis. Have some respect for yourself, learn how to sail or design boats, and don't post anything until you know what you are talking about.

This was posted on Sailing Anarchy a couple months ago. The intent to ban is clearly indicated though execution was a bit iffy. So what do you say Frank - haven't been banned? Not for lack of trying!
________________________________________________________________
Editor
Posted on Oct 13 2004, 11:24 AM
Anarchist

Group: Admin
Posts: 659
Member No.: 5
Joined: 20-September 03

Frank? What the **** are you doing back here? I banned you, mostly because you didn't do what I asked you to do. So you think posting from your office is clever? Now your office is banned. That's what happens when you try to go around my back. Buh-bye.
--------------------
Rough around the edges, rude and lacks common editorial sense.
_________________________________________________________________
Hey Frank, care to estimate how many folks you have convinced over the years with all this lunacy that you spew out through the internet? I've watched you get your ass kicked in several forums this year, and it's safe to say the answer is somewhere between zero and one, inclusive, and counting the dopey face that looks at you from the mirror every morning. You're a jerk and and idiot. Go find a life somewhere.

[mighetto]

Slipstream

He must have known this Mighetto twit too. Even his avatar thinks the Mac26x is in need of sinking.

My complements on the art work. However, you are not getting the important fact. Mac26x vessels are not sinkable. They have solid flotation. This is such a significant feature for an ocean going craft that it is mind boggling that only MacGregor, ETAP, Potters and most multihulls care to include the feature in the design. (Some Hunters have solid flotation but not enough to prevent sinking.) Solid flotation makes the boat its own life raft.

Of course slap a 1000 lb bulb keel on the hull and you have a contemporary sinker Please note the smiley. I really do not believe monohull boats that when flooded will sink to be any more dangerous than cars on the freeway. This solid flotation deal is nonetheless a significant feature for an ocean sail boat. Not as significant as a reliable secondary power source, but one we should see more of in new designs. We will see more monohulls with positive flotation as designers move out of RI and the surounding states with the close minded society that prevents them from seeing.

Oh boy, I am in a mood. Sorry. Might as well get this over with.

Rumors that the TP52s do not hold their hull shape are apparently true. I have been delaying reporting on this because I didn't believe it. If you measure the hull of a TP52 today with laser tools, and then take her out for a hard race, when you measure the hull tomorrow it will measure differently. This creates problems in getting ocean race ratings but more importantly it speaks to what Perry mentioned in his review of what we think is Trader.

He speculated an arms race for lighter and lighter hulls would result from the box rules. Well the result is hulls that do not hold their shapes. And this is being reported on the official TP52 owners association site. It would be like sail laminates. After a hard race the boats hull shape will be different. She will never sail the same again. WoW. Designers and manufacturers are looking at a tough time in making that situation right. Can any one provide new information? This TP business has taken on Tragic Proportions.

[mighetto]

Sail One

How can you keep posting? Everytime you say anything it is ridiculed and people degrade you on a daily basis. Have some respect for yourself, learn how to sail or design boats, and don't post anything until you know what you are talking about.

I continue to post because you are incorrect. I have tremendous support from those feeding me and know much more than I can let on. I can rattle off half a dozen names of former MacGregor Yachts owners, two of them Mac26x owners and others who are currantly famous racers or race organizers. We are a clan even more powerful than the Sailing Anarchists of which we have also infultrated I could claim to represent the true sailing anarchists. We are the ones who recognize that the status quo blows when it comes to sailing in the US and are doing something about it.

Sort it out for yourself. The dealers and manufactures are responsible for educating their customers. Good dealers and manufactures like those associated with MacGregor Yachts have well educated clients for life. Lesser dealers and manufactures have clients that make the same mistakes in boat purchases over and over and over again.



Sail One, I believe you are a multihuller. The multihullers were the first to appreciate what is now being applied to monohulls. Welcome to boatdesign.net. It is great to hear from you.

The above is the MacGregor Yacht Mac26m fitted out as a trimaran. This is a mighettoism that was inspired by a Robert Perry review where he pointed out that the middle hull of a multihull has been marketed as a monohull in the past. Then he reviewed the Mac26m.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

Do you know what a planing V hull is? Have you ever seen one?

Søren Flening

MacGregor Yachts current model, the Mac26m has a planing V hull. I can not convey my respect for this designer more than to note that he has been recognized by many of the writers in sailing magazines distributed in the US. These are the ones that put his Mac25 into the Sailboat Hall of Fame in RI, a fact that I am certain appalls lesser close minded designers who currently are trying to hold on to a practice there. Move west - or at least south. The sailing museum state is not a good place to practice boat design

The planing V hull form is the most popular hull form for power boaters in the US and the Mac26m has an 18 inch dead rise which I have always thought defines a power boat. Yet the Mac26m is sold as a sail boat.

The speculation that I have on this is that when Jim Teeters with his apparant approval from US Sailing identified himself as anti-Mac26x by seeking to testify in the July 4th 2002 drunken boaters case, MacGregor Yacht's response was to rush out a new model because there was risk that a judge might order a halt in Mac26x production.

This Mac26m may have been a monohull concept pre Mac26x, or she may have been the middle hull of a multihull. In any case, We were informed at the Macgregor plant that she was not a replacement for the X and that X production would continue. The halt in production really was a surprise but is explanable because of business insurance.

It is likely that MacGregor Yacht's insurance carrier wanted a premium to be applied after hull 5000 was produced, the premium representing new perceived risk associated with Jim Teeters', and by implication US Sailing's, objections to the design.

To get Mac26m out, MacGregor Yachts used a plug. http://www.macgregor26.com/construction.htm. This is to be contrasted with TP52 development and Mac26x production where AFAIK, only female molds are used. We know from Perry that the Mac26x was made out in a physical small model form from which a plug might have been based on. Anyway plugs are common for power boat manufacturing because in power boat manufacturing you change the hull form in models almost every year. In sailng racability is harmed by frequent changes in hull form.

Anyway, The boat shows are going to be interesting this year. The Macgregor Yacht dealer in Seattle doesn't have one sail boat to show that isn't already sold. Something is up at the plant. We just do not know what. A new model perhaps, More X production, I hope. The Mac70. Who knows? Roger's daughter married a power boat manufacturer's son, best I can tell, a fellow named Sharp. Perhaps the new generation wants to make a power boat.

[mighetto]

"Solid flotation makes the boat its own life raft."

TP52 defender

No it does not. Look it up you fool ....... Hint look up ORC regs or in the CFR's. You, through you misinformation, are now making dangerous statements. Hopefully no one here will take any of what you say with any level a credibility and endanger themselves.

I stand by my statements. The Mac26x and all boats with solid flotation serve as their own life rafts. Perhaps someone will qualify them under ORC regs or CFR's one day. Perhaps they already qualify.

Rumors that the TP52s do not hold their hull shape are apparently true. I have been delaying reporting on this because I didn't believe it. If you measure the hull of a TP52 today with laser tools, and then take her out for a hard race, when you measure the hull tomorrow it will measure differently. This creates problems in getting ocean race ratings but more importantly it speaks to what Perry mentioned in his review of what we think is Trader." -

Lie, Many of the TP 52's have re-wanded after modifications and the measurements come out the same. To the best of my knowledge none of the 52's have been laser wanded to this date due to the extreme cost.

OK, I am back to not believing. It is a hard pill to swallow. Lets just say that a new purchaser should check out the measurments listed at the builder with what the boat actually measures out to and that http://www.transpac52.org is my source.

"Well the result is hulls that do not hold their shapes. And this is being reported on the official TP52 owners association site. " -

Care to post a cite on this "fact" - especial since the class weights are closely controlled.

I will concede this point with you because I can not longer find a reference on the TP52 owners association site. However, hull mishaping owing to the arms race in lighter and lighter hulls allowed by the TP52 box rule, at the time of Perry's review, is practically predicted by the author. The fact that the TP52 box rules are under revision today is likely related. Perhaps the revision will require that a portion of the weight in the bulb keel instead be put into the hull in the form of bracing, stress point reinforcement, bulkheads etc.

The Brazil TP52 Trader was built like a J-boat. IE vacuum bagged. Mirrabella V and Mac26x cruisers were not built with this method because the stress point reinforcement needed to make the hulls ocean worthy is very expensive and possibly impossible with bagging. Catalina uses bags on liners and bulkheads but not hulls. Yet all agree that the bag method can be superior to hand laid fiberglass. I do not question that. What I question is how often is it superior and can it really be applied to hulls larger than 30 foot effectively.

The only tragic thing here is you are incapable of learning from you betters .....but at least most of your lies are humorous.

Expect more from me. I am capable of learning.

Look, all the GP RWP did was reject stability requirements based on mathematics. You still have to show that the boat can be righted after capsize. Now why don't TP52s get tested in a pool like Ocean 70s and Mac26x cruisers. It is likely that in turning the vessel upside down the weight of that bulb keel is going to permanently damage the weak hull. Take this opinion to the bank, or to your TP52 insurance carrier or broker. You will not be selling used TP52s without re-wanding. There is concern. It is not responsible to ignore these concerns.