TP52s

knock it off frank. you really are a huge asshole. can't wait unitl your club kicks your stupid ass out.


stop being a cunt

[mighetto]

Results are In and sux

FYI, I had Murrelet rated PHRF for spinnaker class and then raced the series in cruising class. My club has yet to see the spinnaker fly and if you review the posted results I did finished in the top seven boats for cruising class for the series. ROTFLMAO. Furthermore, the manufacture has announced a bowsprit and larger asymetric for the boat. You will see Murrelet move up. You will also see other MacGregor Yachts, possibly even a Classic, racing in the next series. Can't we all get along . I mean seriously, I like all boats, even TP52s. I am just saying that the rize of the American sailor in international competitions is dependent on keeping new-to-the-sport sailors off that kind of vessel.

"Nonetheless, to stay on the leading edge of monohull sailing today, you have to be into planing boats and moveable ballast"

Your vessel is non of the above, you do know that don't you? As to your East is least and TP 52 bashing - put that runt of a powerboat of yours on a trailer and bring it over and do the KWRW delivery race. Ft. Lauderdale to Key West in PHRF (and IRC) - you get to play against everyone else out there, including the TP52's. Time to show us all how you and your boat are light-years ahead of the latest GP designs.

If not - since you wouldn't (or are not capable physically, tactically, and mentally) put up - shut up you flake.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The graphic is that for the advanced Tasar superimposed onto my vessel's hull form. I often use it to demonstrat to crew that the centerboard slot is not in the water when on heel as those-who-like-Bravo-Sierra will tell them dockside.

So you superimpose one design onto another to demonstrate something to your crew? That's fucking irresponsible!
BTW: Why is it important that the centerboard slot is not in the water when the boat is heeled?

Originally Posted by mighetto

What is clear is that when you look at any natural thing in the sea or sky, you do not find weighted bulbs on the end of a thin foil.

That's true - you also don't find many natural things with masts and sails etc.

Originally Posted by mighetto

Results are In and sux

FYI, I had Murrelet rated PHRF for spinnaker class and then raced the series in cruising class. My club has yet to see the spinnaker fly and if you review the posted results I did finished in the top seven boats for cruising class for the series. ROTFLMAO. Furthermore, the manufacture has announced a bowsprit and larger asymetric for the boat. You will see Murrelet move up. You will also see other MacGregor Yachts, possibly even a Classic, racing in the next series. Can't we all get along . I mean seriously, I like all boats, even TP52s. I am just saying that the rize of the American sailor in international competitions is dependent on keeping new-to-the-sport sailors off that kind of vessel.

fuck you. fuck murrelet. you are an idiot. you say yourself you have never been on a race boat. all you do is haul yourself around to events and talk the ears off of good sailors. get in a fucking boat and learn to race. until then shut your fucking mouth.

no one wants to get along with you because you are an arrogant prick.

shut your fucking mouth you bloated goddamn idiot.

fuck you

i won't bother to pick apart your recent mumbling bullshit. you suck and i hate you. but i must ask one simple question:

Models of the wing of a bird called the swift, have recently been tested in a water tunnel and the results are now published in the Journal of Science.

i've heard of water testing tanks and i've heard of wind tunnels, but what the f*ck is a water tunnel and why are being cruel to animals by putting them in one. birds do not have gills, they have regular breathing like me (you get your 'whatever you consume' god knows how...tell me your a martian and this all will make much more sense). keep that shit up and i'll have peta on your ass so quick you'll wish you had a 75 horse on that p.o.s. to run away from the trouble coming your way. in fact, i'll even call the dept. of homeland security on you. afterall, that dribbly hull crapper you call a sailboat is the perfect terroist weapon....no one cares to look at it twice (or even once fer christsakes), it will hold 3 small immigrant families down below with all that freeboard (thus could easily hold a wmd), and it has a nice motor to deliver the wmd with full impact. think i'm joking frank? be prepared to meet the feds should you keep this up.


people of boatdesign.net: you have been warned. frank will not stop unless you stop him. he has almost doubled in size since today's postings began. even godzilla is now afraid of the frakmothra. ban him now. do not hesitate. you must do this for everyones sake.

i implore you to act...

Originally Posted by CT 249

"What is clear is that when you look at any natural thing in the sea or sky, you do not find weighted bulbs on the end of a thin foil. You can talk about the physics until you are blue in the face, the fact is that natural selection over millions of years did not favor the form required for a TP52 keel. That bulb is grossly ugly to nature, period."

Yes, when you look at any natural thing in the sea or sky, you do not find weighted bulbs on the end of a thin foil. You also don't find fibreglass on a duck. You don't find an internal combustion engines on a penguin's bum. You don't find a propeller or jet turbine on a swift. You don't find radar on a whale. You don't find blankets, stoves, c cabins, flourescent lights, radios, centreboards, roller furling, wheels or trailers in nature either.

So if you can't have a bulb keel because "it just ain't natural", you also can't have your Mac, your car, your house, your clothes, your TV, or your computer either.

Please, don't take that as meaning you have to take your clothes off. Just get rid of your computer.

Re heel. Much as I respect Frank Bethwaite, his boats are NOT particularly good in light airs, nor is the idea of heeling to leeward and packing weight forward anything he create. Hell, Snipes were doing it in the 1930s. The Tasar shape is outmoded by a more symmetrical design. And a single look at your Mac will show that in light airs, the centreboard case IS in the water; just as it is in a Tasar when it's sailed at the right light-air angle.

Re "The rig on all these vessels is very flexible and fractional. I call it a soft rig. What this does in the design is similar to what a sailboard operator does with his or her strength and agility. That is constant adjustments to gusts. As wind hits the main it pulls the top of the mast back".

It only does it properly when you use the vang and mainsheet properly, Frank - your main is bagging like my grandma's drawers.


"....and that flattens the head sail."

No it doesn't, the compression bend REDUCES the hounds to deck measurement and therefore LOOSENS the forestay and DEEPENS the headsail. That is one reason why we use vang, mainsheet and sometimes backstay....or adjust D1s, forestay etc.

"This is automatic and a contributing factor to stability and speed."

So why did you finish about an hour behind second last?

Finally - if TP 52s are no good apart from WW/LW courses, explain their Bermuda results.

chris,
please do not feed the animals.

[CT 249]

Exorcist, I just had to put up some more posts since I registered, so I can go back and drive him mad by deleting them..............

"Help me Mrs M, they're taking their posts away,

I'm meeeellllllllttttttttinnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggg"

[mighetto]

Now now now. I have every post on the eskimo.com server. CT 249 your material will never melt away. We will get to it eventually.

For tonight consider



to be a centerfoil found in nature. Then think about the new surf boats with "internal pendulems" being put into service this year on the columbia river. There is so much design work coming out of the yards from the Homeland Security efforts that you just have to forsee great designs further obsoleting the TP52s. What did them in was the GP RWP. Weep with me that the first IRC race held in the US was just a few months ago. We are so far behind in the sailing sport in this country. A third world really. CT 249 - read my version of the Hope Island Race. http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...&page=16&pp=15
then come back with questions.

I wonder what this resolution was for??

Resolution to be offered to the Board of South Sound Sailing Society September 21 2004

Whereas, individual members of the Board have responsibilities and authorities as defined in these Bylaws and as may be assigned from time to time by the Board in its meetings;

Whereas individual members of the Board have multiple other interests, responsibilities, and authorities;

Whereas, good stewardship requires that Board members acting in an official capacity make clear to all with whom they deal that this is the case, and otherwise avoid giving the impression that their personal interests have the sanction of the SSSS;

Therefore we resolve that any Board member who, in statements public or private, written or oral, states or implies the endorsement of the SSSS for any opinion act, or event, is acting in good stewardship only insofar as such statements are within the authority conferred on that Board member by the Bylaws, or by specific assignment of the Board.

Further, we resolve that any Board member who states or implies the endorsement of the SSSS or its Board for opinions, acts, or events without such authority is by this act guilty of poor stewardship and is subject to the penalties for such poor stewardship stated in the Bylaws.

http://www.ssssclub.com/bmin904.htm

Originally Posted by Stop it Frank

is subject to the penalties for such poor stewardship stated in the Bylaws.

Too bad the "penalty" isn't something painful.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Stop it Frank

I wonder what this resolution was for??

Resolution to be offered to the Board of South Sound Sailing Society September 21 2004

Whereas, individual members of the Board have responsibilities and authorities as defined in these Bylaws and as may be assigned from time to time by the Board in its meetings;

Whereas individual members of the Board have multiple other interests, responsibilities, and authorities;

Whereas, good stewardship requires that Board members acting in an official capacity make clear to all with whom they deal that this is the case, and otherwise avoid giving the impression that their personal interests have the sanction of the SSSS;

Therefore we resolve that any Board member who, in statements public or private, written or oral, states or implies the endorsement of the SSSS for any opinion act, or event, is acting in good stewardship only insofar as such statements are within the authority conferred on that Board member by the Bylaws, or by specific assignment of the Board.

Further, we resolve that any Board member who states or implies the endorsement of the SSSS or its Board for opinions, acts, or events without such authority is by this act guilty of poor stewardship and is subject to the penalties for such poor stewardship stated in the Bylaws.

http://www.ssssclub.com/bmin904.htm

The race chair proposed a resolution. The only discussion involved the purpose for the resolution being forward thinking rather than related to any behavior in the past. There was no motion to amend the resolution but there was discussion that had there been, the motion to amend would take precedence. Stephen, the race chair, authored the resolution. The un amended motion was seconded by Frank and Dan, and was unanimously accepted.

SIF, Please take more coffee in your sugar. But I do like your bringing this up because it is directly related to the hype involving TP52s. US Sailing appeared to support Jim Teeters in his tirades against movable balasted boats. Jim Teeters was none to shy about using the US Sailing stamp of approval, an aura of importance, in selling his services as an expert in court cases and ORCA. US Sailing's reorganization is directly related as is the likely difficulty involving business insurance MacGregor Yachts may have had with continued production of the MacGregor 26x. BTW the views expressed on this forum are my own and are not attributable to any organization currently affiliated with me or my business. That doesn't mean the views expressed here are incorrect. Lets rock on.

[mighetto]

"Nonetheless, to stay on the leading edge of monohull sailing today, you have to be into planing boats and moveable ballast"

Guest writes:

Your vessel is none of the above, you do know that don't you?

This is what I have confirmed. They are the words of the manufacturer and designer. I never tire of quoting Roger MacGregor because I have confirmed his words to be true.

Quick, stable and responsive, the revolutionary MacGregor 26 is the fastest and best handling of any of the trailerable cruising sailboats... Here are your sailing choices: (1) With the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26 is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginner. (2) With the big genoa jib or spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Unballasted, it is one of the wildest and potentially fastest sailboats around. Under power (i) without ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted power boat....If you want a thrill, few sports can equal heavy weather sailboat racing.

As to your East is least and TP 52 bashing - put that runt of a powerboat of yours on a trailer and bring it over and do the KWRW delivery race. Ft. Lauderdale to Key West in PHRF (and IRC) - you get to play against everyone else out there, including the TP52's. Time to show us all how you and your boat are light-years ahead of the latest GP designs.

You are half serious arn't you In 1999 more that a few Mac26x vessels made the trip from Crandon Park marina on Miami's Key Biscayn or nearby to the Bahamas. They do so every year now. At least one Mac26x yacht made the trip from the city marina at Garison Bight in Key West to the Marquesas and on to the Tortugas. The 1000 mile coast of Florida has been sailed by a Mac26x. You will get your chance to compare my vessel type to your favorate GP - I doubt it is a TP52 - eventually. But do not expect to sail a Mac26x well until you have unlearned most of what they taught you crewing on keel boats. Friends do not let friends crew on keel boats. It is damaging to their sailing careers.

However, you should be aware that this kind of thing was already done on the west coast. Lady Katie Too! sailed and motored to first in cruising class in the 1997 Newport to Ensenada Race becoming infamous. see http://www.latitude38.com/features/ensenada.htm (latitude38). Racing proves nothing. It is the market place that governs. For example, US Sailing reluctantly agreed to support IRC because of NYYC who had had it big time with the TP52s and ORCA.

If not - since you wouldn't (or are not capable physically, tactically, and mentally) put up - shut up you flake

The topic is TP52s, the good, the bad, and the ugly. It is not Mac26x cruisers. The largest thread in the history of Sailing Anarchy was about Mac26x cruisers. There were 10,000 views on one day. You apparently missed all of that. To bad a hackor removed most of that thread. It was called The Future of Yacht Design and was started by Tripp Gal. Complain to the editor about the lack of security on Sailing Anarchy that allows that kind of thing. But, I have many of the ideas from that forum in my cruising log. It is on line if you are interested. Put up your own ideas on a web site refuting http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/murrelet.htm if you disagree. It is a big web, we all can have a voice.

[mighetto]

Søren Flening

So you superimpose one design onto another to demonstrate something to your crew? That's fucking irresponsible!

One of the great things about a radical design like the Mac26x when it first comes out is that there are few experts. By nature of having the hull that has been in salt water longer than any of her sister ships, I am one of a dozen or so sailors that are experts on this model. It is irresponsible not to pass on what I have learned. Notions regarding the vessel have been put up for critical analysis by other sailors and now designers over the last 4 years. You can find the halfed baked ideas on boards like Sailnet.net and Anarchy.com as well as on MacGregor Yacht owner boards. I present and write what I believe is true and expect professional sailors and designers to struggle with correcting me because my notions are almost always the notions of others. In otherwords, I am a product of what I am fed. If I am fed crap you need to shake it out of me. However, you must also consider the possibility that you also have been fed crap. Half of what they taught me while getting my biology undergraduate degree has turned out to be incorrect. It is probably like that in the boat design and other applied science fields as well.

Why is it important that the centerboard slot is not in the water when the boat is heeled?

This goes back to research on dinghys. Snipes, I believe. It was demonstrated that the Snipes with swing style centerboards and large slots to house those boards were slower down wind than boats with dagger style and small slots, this probably owing to turbulance in the slots. When going up wind no difference was observed. The Mac26x, doesn't have a slot. This demonstration really doesn't apply. Instead she has a hollow in her hull into which a center foil can swing into. But crew are often told by those with lesser vessels that the dagger style centerboard is superior to the swing style boards because of this slot turbulance, turbualance you can not get on heel and do not get if the slot is capped or the centerfoil in housed in a hull hollow. This recent information on swift wings and vortex creation coupled with the effect of a hollow, which lifts a hull, is worthy of discussion. Do we dare do so? I don't think readers are ready yet. But the finding that the TP52s are allowed a hollow in the forward part of the hull is a good thing about the design IMO. The bulb is not. What is clear is that when you look at any natural thing in the sea or sky, you do not find weighted bulbs on the end of a thin foil.


That's true - you also don't find many natural things with masts and sails etc.

If you look hard enough you do find natural things that support sailboat design. For example, trees bend with the wind. This was pointed out to Guzzwell when he questioned the masts built for Trekka



The notion that a thin flexible mast might be capable of withstanding Force 8 and above, starts to look less silly when you look at trees bending in the wind and the notion of a ridged telephone style mast starts becoming questionable. The TP52s are being kind of forced to ridged rigs by the mast weight requirement. They could gain stability by using carbon fiber on the top portion of the mast, Like Tasars. Regarding sails and nature, I think jelly fish (man-o-wars) put up somethng like a sail and of course, the notion that the sail and foils are like wings on a bird only one wing is in a different medium (water) is prevalent.
__________________
Best regards,

"They could gain stability by using carbon fiber on the top portion of the mast"

Stop, Please STOP, STOP NOW - you freak TP52's are carbon rigged, the whole rig. Your lack of knowledge about sailing is only surpassed by your ignorance about yacht, rig, and foil design.