TP52s

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mholguin

This is the best free entertainment you can get free on the Internet....

Huzzah, a newbe. Before we get serious about the upcoming Transpac it is useful to entertain the Corinthians with a bit of historical fact. No I am not going to get into bulbous bow shapes long favored by real mariners as opposed to yachties (not that there is anything wrong with being a yachty Hee Hee).

This is more in line with why the Swiss deserve the America's Cup.

I had the distinct pleasure of interviewing a University of Santa Barbara graduate, like myself, day before yesterday while driving him to Olympia Washington. His personal hero, 200 years ago, founded what we know of today as NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) which prior to 1970 was known as the Coast and Geodectic Survey and Coast Survey. NOAA is the father of virtually all US government scientific organizations and her founding main man is Ferdinand Hessler, a Swiss national who literally located the USA on the globe, and of course later became a US citizen. Congratulations Alinghi. May science guide the new designs of the America's Cup Competition. Hessler would be proud.

If you live in Seattle, Dr Mike Cloud will be representing NOAA and Hessler at Sand Point on I think he said July 18th. Huzzah we enter a new age of sail.

Of course I now must mention Murrelet and duck dodge. A murrelet is a kind of duck so as I understand the rules if you make my boat change course while wearing pajamas next week you forefit the race. These races on Lake Union, Tuesday nights, are a square course which - when you think about it - can be the best kind of course for racing in that you might have two reaching, one down wind, and one upwind leg. But who cares - it is about the raft up. We have the table. Drinks are mixed on Murrelet owing to good design. Hee Hee. We are having such a great summer. Why would anyone live back east? Say hello and encourage the wife and perhaps I can make race week.

Frank L Mighetto
member US Sailing
member SSSS
member OYC

[PI Design]

Its not so much that I don't agree with what he says, so much as I don't understand any of it. Its just incoherent rambling so far as I can tell.

[sailsmall]

Originally Posted by PI Design

Its not so much that I don't agree with what he says, so much as I don't understand any of it. Its just incoherent rambling so far as I can tell.

You need to save your cereal box tops and send in for the decoder ring. The 3-D glasses help too sometimes.

[Mark 42]

For the most part it is incoherent rambling.

But this info may help...
His boat is named Murrelet.
Duck Dodge is an informal race on Lake Union:
http://www.duckdodge.org/text.php?page=rules
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

The course is not necessarily a square, it is whatever the race committee
calls out right before the race. My guess is Frank likes the race because
it does not say specifically that use of the motor is prohibitted.

He also doesn't understand that science does not govern America's Cup design rules.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by Mark 42

He also doesn't understand that science does not govern America's Cup design rules.

Oh, Mark! Say it ain't so!

[Mark 42]

Winged keels weren't designed because they are the most efficient design...
they were designed as the best way to improve an inefficient design.

In some ways, rules impede science, but at the same time, they create
sdvancements that wouldn't have otherwise occurred.

The best design for a fixed keel where speed is the only parameter
would be a forward swept very deep and narrow (high aspect ratio)
elliptical planform keel.

But, that would pick up seaweed, and would have a very deep draft.

The 12 meter rules limitted draft, so in order to make the keel look
deeper (longer... like an airplane wing) winglets were added.
This reduces flow around the tip of the keel from one side to the other
(induced drag)... just as the winglets on airplanes reduce induced drag
by making the wingspan appear longer (aerodynamically).

Unlike an airplane wing though... adding weight at the tip is not necessarily
a bad thing.

So, the rule limitting draft on a 12-meter boat ended up forcing racing
to develop a new design that was not very useful to the rest of the
racing world, but an ideal solution to the cruising issue of reduced
performance in shoal draft sailing vessels.

Yes, I know you were saying it tongue in cheek, but it got me thinking
about it from a different angle... how restricting progress actually spurred
progress in a different direction.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the mother of efficiency.
Budget is just a mother to deal with.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

Oh, Mark! Say it ain't so!

Oh Sail Design. Are you still beating yet another dead horse out of Rhode Island. Yet one more TP52? Science dictates that if you are going to build a sinker to cross the Pacific Ocean that it at least can not leak.

"Bob Wiley asked on behalf of John Kilroy of Samba Pa Ti that the class measurers check & enforce the waterproof requirement of ISAF Special Regs in regards to the hull & deck being waterproof. . Many (TP52) boats in his opinion do not meet this requirement as they are seen bailing out buckets of water between races in relatively smooth conditions. Class officials stated they will look into this issue ASAP."

http://www.transpac52.org/Documents/...utes092206.htm

The TP52s are pure marketing and little more than that. They never deserved the name TransPac. Can the name just be dropped? Can TP come to mean nothing, rather than TransPac? May I suggest TransBuoy?

We who live on the Pacific coast were happy to find out that in spite of TP52 Braveheart's breaking the Swiftsure Record (second on corrected time) that the young potentials riding TP52s are less and less impressed with them than ever.

I say this because Morning Light and Pyewacket recently bumped into each other before starting the Transpac race and the sailors on Morning Light were awestruck. The Morning Light crew are paid crew making a film involving TP52s for Disney that is to come out in 2008. Part of the marketing, arranged long before the TP52s fissiled in 2003, I am certain.

Disney's new Pyewacket - newly and radically modified - has wings. Compare and contrast with the old horse Pegasus (now Morning Light) where young potentials are learning to accept notions of boat design shown incorrect by the scientific method.

Rhode Island has attempted to make wrong notions look right long enough. 200 plus years now. That is a patriot's perspective. We need new sailors trained on the new designs if we are going to compete internationally. Lets at least require TP52 crews to be over the age of 50.

I'll admit Braveheart proved something. The TP52s are worthy of at least a footnote: fastest fixed fin weighted keel boat when there is wind to carry.

Yet the design is still wrong for ocean going. Too much heel for ocean crossing and not enough weight where it does good - in the hull and in a larger secondary power source.

Frank L. Mighetto

[mholguin]

...Can the name just be dropped? Can TP come to mean nothing, rather than TransPac? May I suggest TransBuoy?

Hummm:

TP = TransPac
TP = TransBuoy ????

LOL Am I missing something????

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Mark 42

Winged keels weren't designed because they are the most efficient design...
they were designed as the best way to improve an inefficient design.

In some ways, rules impede science, but at the same time, they create
sdvancements that wouldn't have otherwise occurred.

The best design for a fixed keel where speed is the only parameter
would be a forward swept very deep and narrow (high aspect ratio)
elliptical planform keel.

But, that would pick up seaweed, and would have a very deep draft.

The 12 meter rules limitted draft, so in order to make the keel look
deeper (longer... like an airplane wing) winglets were added.
This reduces flow around the tip of the keel from one side to the other
(induced drag)... just as the winglets on airplanes reduce induced drag
by making the wingspan appear longer (aerodynamically).

Unlike an airplane wing though... adding weight at the tip is not necessarily
a bad thing.

So, the rule limitting draft on a 12-meter boat ended up forcing racing
to develop a new design that was not very useful to the rest of the
racing world, but an ideal solution to the cruising issue of reduced
performance in shoal draft sailing vessels.

Yes, I know you were saying it tongue in cheek, but it got me thinking
about it from a different angle... how restricting progress actually spurred
progress in a different direction.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the mother of efficiency.
Budget is just a mother to deal with.

Madison detested compromise that involved abandoned principles. He preferred that citizens inform themselves and take a side, rather than sliding listlessly into murky situations they did not choose to understand out of laziness.

We US citizens are still learning that money no longer equals influence. It is less and less possible to build support for something like a TP52 via purchasing public relation services, film crews, Sailing Anarchy web content, and lawyers.

Unlike citizens of other nations, we US citizens can speak without the level of fear regarding our professions, employment, and being sued, that is common in every other nation. It has been that way since the nation was founded. We have been fooled to remain silent by those who wish to harm us.

Those who have represented us in our sport do not take sides and prefer laziness rather than conflict. The TP52s should have been required to pass the capsize risk ratio before being portrayed as ocean racers. It is not the way of our founding fathers and the proof - at a minimum - is in our failure be competitive internationally in the sailing sport.

May I propose that only the US born be allowed to hold offices at US Sailing.

My how serious this has all become. Know that I am saying this almost tongue and cheek. Your post hit me quite hard.

Frank L. Mighetto
US patriot

[sailsmall]

Dang, I must have an old decoder ring. These last two posts make even less sense than usual. Maybe I'm using it backwards...

[marshmat]

Closing in on 2,000 posts....
What's the boatdesign.net record for longest single thread?

[mholguin]

BoatDesign.net announced in a press conference today that whoever makes the 2,000th post would be the winner of a very special prize: To become crew of Mighetto for a full year on bard of... you name it! His MAC!!!!!

(Now this thread will die for sure!!)

[sailsmall]

The ring appears to be working again.

Originally Posted by mighetto

... the TP52s fissiled [fizzled???] in 2003 ...
Frank L. Mighetto

Err, that's a rather bold statement. Could you explain a bit how the class is any weaker now than before 2003? Last time I checked (Med Cup) they were quite active.

[DLackey]

Originally Posted by sailsmall

Could you explain a bit how the class is any weaker now than before 2003?

Oh I'm sure he can explain it but no one would understand the explanation.

[sailsmall]

A lot of respect for the Mac26 on the SA forum:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...howtopic=57634
Even there [edit: on SA, that is] no one has ever sugjestificated the TP52 for Americas Cup (that I'm aware of). Just one more data point demonstrating the correctivity of Frank's many argumentations.

Appologies four the questionable terminologizing. I'm still struggling with my decoder ring to translatify standard english into Frank speakish. Can't figure out what suddenly went wrang with the darn thing.