TP52s

[TP 52 Defender]

You mean Frank didn't race in 30 knots? After all of his silliness about 52 not being able to race in big breeze his group pulls the plug. In KW the TP 52 raced in 28 – 34 TWS without even needing to reef the mains. So much for one more of Franks silly little lies.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Shife

I think his radar tower is only rated for 20kt winds. He might want to stay ashore with his fellow powerboaters.

Cold dude. The race was not started. See the South Sound Sailing Site for the explanation. I had decided on friday that this was going to be up to the crew and at 5 pm we did decide not to race. Richard from Osa came by at about 5:30 and as I was telling him we were backing out he informed me that he understood the race would be called. The weather report at that time was for 40 MPH sustained winds with 60 MPH gusts. Instead we went to a seahawks party at Alki this morning. Winds in Seattle have been about 20 MPH with gusts to 30 and I can't tell you about Olympia but there is yet another front coming in. So before the piss is opened for an afternoon Seahawks party lets rock. The Chuch of FOYD is now open. Just for a few hours however.

Sled Redux

The return of the sleds on the west coast is underway. In February of 2006, Sail magazine reported That Dale Williams and an owner who preferred not to be named “were sailing back from Catalina talking about the hard realities of racing Transpac 52s” (page FS4) when they decided to contact Bill Lee and purchase one of the 70 foot race boats he was famous for prior to getting involved in the ill-conceived TP52 box rules. After looking at what it would cost to restore one of the old Lee boats they had Dennis Choate build Peligroso, a 70 footer in the spirt of the SantaCruise70s and MacGregor65s. This boat beat Genuine Risk and corrected out to first overall in the Encenada Race but did not beat the course record currently held by a MacGregor Yacht. Optimal angle of heel was carefully calculated in the design process. Apparently the optimal angle of heel of the TP52s is its greatest defect in design when it comes to the reality of racing one of these boats.

Frank L. Mighetto

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

Frank was pretty explicit back in the old SA thread that the modern sailing yacht, such as the Mac26x, is designed explicitly to motor out of the way of major storms and put into harbor when the wind gets up into that range. How would he accomplish that during an ocean crossing (which you know the Mac26x is capable of)? By hitching a ride with passing freighters or military ships, of course.

So what excuse will Frank use this weekend? I predict he will accuse anyone who does go out of behaving irresponsibly and will duck any questions of his boat's seaworthiness or his own ability.

Oh contrare. I love chatting about the seaworthiness of boats designed as a Mac26x. It is these design points that establish the TP52 supporters as fools, and owners of the boats as mislead, if not cheated. Lets first put up Eric's elloquent explanation of the race called today:

****

The McAllister Creek Race is cancelled. The current NWS forecast for the Olympia Area calls for increasing winds Saturday gusting to 60 mph. Whether or not the weather deteriorates to that extent is beyond my ability to foretell. I do not have the luxury of waiting until the last minute because there is a need to contact a large number of people before they leave for the race. Paramount in my mind is a concern for our more novice skippers who might follow the old pros out and then find themselves and crew in a rapidly escalating, dangerous situation. Hopefully, everyone can understand if not sympathize with my position. Sixty knots of wind is a major threat not to be confused with our normal storm conditions.

****

This happens to be my favorite race at SSSS because of the beauty of the course and last year we were sailing in 45 MPH gusts. I was solo handling and following the fleet except that string thing was behind me. After the sun went down the wind went to nothing and a 30 minute estimate to finish turned into 4 hours.

I would have torn the *&^% out of my old head sail but you are correct, a 2K sail would not have been sacrificed. The Mac26 is well proven as an ocean sailer. Have you not followed Arrow on Sailing Anarchy and on the Macgregor board? There have been no less than 5 Mac26x vessels that have circumnavigated Vancouver Island where the brunt of today's storm is. Of course you do this kind of thing in-season. Not Now. Modern weather reporting means light fast boats are more appropriate for ocean sailing than heavy slow boats. Without the reporting, you could expect a vessel to weather at least one storm at sea in her life time. With modern reporting and fast light designs you no longer expect a boat to weather a storm at sea. It takes a thrill seeker to do so, even those with out weather eyes can hear. This fundamental fact has altered boat design. It is the reason ISAF force fed the new designed movable ballast vessels on US Sailing to the strong objections of the old Top downers. Movable ballast vessels, expecially water ballast, can be designed so that they float even when capsized. That is the way it should be.

Frank L. Mighetto

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by 101

Frank, who on the west coast of the US is producing a mini? I have been following the mini's for a while and perhaps I've missed something. Looking forward to your information.

101

The Mini Transats are high performace solo and double handed sailers that have advanced the state-of-the-art in movable ballast for some time. Bob Salmon organized the first race in 1977 so the boats are proven ocean crossers. They are also proof that small production boats of under 40,000 in cost can be made for this work. The boats are only 21 foot but they have articulating bow sprits which make them about the size of a Mac26x overall.

The water ballasted Mini vessels use a kind of movable ballast meant to simulate rail meat. In other words water is pumped from side to side and resides in tanks that are close to the top deck where up to 8 crew members would reside in a vessel as light without movable ballast. The movement of water ballast is also on and off the boat which is the form of movable water ballast found in the Mac26x vessels.

Mac26x vessels are not limited by a design rule which requires water ballast tanks to simulate rail meat in the Mini Transats. The kind of water ballast used in the Mac26x is called inertial ballast and the tanks are low in the vessel where twin keels would exist in a similar sized vessel.

I see the Mac26x design as having benefited from the Mini Transat experience which is freely shared like open source code in software engineering. The Mac26x was designed on the west coast of the US and its popularity probably explains why the greatest number of Minitransats in the world are now being built on the west coast of the US. There are at least half a dozen Minis being built in California and Vancouver Canada and several are being imported. The Mini 6.5s as they are called on the west coast of the US, are built by John Keightly in Vancouver Canada from plans of Dudly Dix of South Africa. Arien Blout imports Spanish built Mini 6.5s to Vancouver Canada. The Californians build Minis from plans in a home craft industry reminding me of the early days of surfing and multi-hulls. About half a dozen home-crafted vessels have been confirmed in the works. Sailing World January/February 2006 pg 46 is the source of this information.

Frank L. Mighetto
representing South Sound Sailing Society
member US Sailing

[frankofile]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Cold dude. The race was not started. See the South Sound Sailing Site for the explanation. I had decided on friday that this was going to be up to the crew and at 5 pm we did decide not to race.

Well, you can't say Frank hasn't learned anything. First rule for any boat owner - always blame the crew.

[mighetto]

Fat Dog

Aaawh come on, HWN is not gonna want to blow out that new UK Tape Drive, even though he claims there is a two year warranty on it.

Sail design is just as important as hull design, I suspect. Here is the exact wording for the UK Sailmakers (NW) inc. warranty

The UK sail(s) you received for your yacht come with a two-year offshore/racing or five-year coastal warranty against defects in materials or workmanship. The warranty pertains to sails that have received reasonable use and does not cover chafe or damage due to abuse or neglect.

This warranty is in lieu of any other warranty express or implied and does not cover any incidental damage or transportation costs.

In order for this warranty to remain in effect, the sail(s) purchased under the warranty require an annual maintenance checkup by an authorized UK loaft

Sail Type: 150 Genoa, Boat Model MacGregor 26x

The Church of FOYD is now closed

Frank L. Mighetto
HWN (He whoes name should not be mentioned)

[frankofile]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The water ballasted Mini vessels use a kind of movable ballast meant to simulate rail meat. In other words water is pumped from side to side and resides in tanks that are close to the top deck where up to 8 crew members would reside in a vessel as light without movable ballast.

No **** Frank. That would be what is generally recognized as an efficient use of water ballast.

Originally Posted by mighetto

The movement of water ballast is also on and off the boat which is the form of movable water ballast found in the Mac26x vessels.

Ie., an inefficient use of water ballast, speaking from a performance point of view.

Originally Posted by mighetto

Frank L. Mighetto
representing South Sound Sailing Society

Oh? In what capacity? And are they aware that you claim to be speaking for them again?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

No **** Frank. That would be what is generally recognized as an efficient use of water ballast.


Ie., an inefficient use of water ballast, speaking from a performance point of view.


Oh? In what capacity? And are they aware that you claim to be speaking for them again?

Not only do I represent South Sound Sailing Society but I also represent the United Sates of America. Let the anthem now be sung. SSSS has always been a bottom-up organization. This should be contrasted with the topdowner approach common at many yacht and golf clubs. In those clubs a small group of individuals black ball members and impose shunning when an individual member speaks truth as I do. Legals have pointed out to me that any member at SSSS represents the club and can speak for it as a member. We can print our own boat cards, use the logo as we see fit, recruit, organize, have performance sailing seminars and dog watch events, all of that and none of it requires board approval. Our board is but an instrumentality of the membership, it operates by rules different from the Society but is ultimately controlled by it.


SSSS has its roots in the anarchy movement out of Portland Oregon. As the unofficial history goes, folks from Oregon were not allowed to join the Olympia Yacht Club when the club was founded. 30 years ago a hat would be passed between OYC members who each had been given two marbles, one black and one white. If the hat returned with a single black ball the individual was not allowed to join or continue being a member, I suppose. Virtually all folks not from the Olympia area were excluded from the club with this mechanism. The anarchists in Portland and Salem and on the Columbia river not only were allegedly behind the start of SSSS but also the start of Evergreen College, a very famous school for its anarchy ways. A student from there was recently bulldozed to death in Israel.

In any case the bottom-up approach to running a sailing club has been adopted by US Sailing. They likely learned from SSSS, whose membership grows where almost all sailing clubs in the US have been in decline. The argument against democratic (bottom-up) clubs is that sometimes a leader from a terrorist group like Humas might get elected. What US Sailing discovered is that the topdowner approach also produces its share of poor leadership. A win-at-any-cost mentality soon justifies lubberly behavior and a system of patronage that diminishes the value of membership.

At SSSS our board is elected by secret ballot. All positions are contested by the mechanism of write ins. The write-ins do not campaign but can. They are notified by the Secretary of the club if elected and can turn down the position. A mechanism exists whereby a single individual can be elected to several board positions. In that case he/she can determine which position to take, this being a function of possibly who he/she doesn't want on the board.

At this time it is not possible to boot the past commodore off the board. A mechanism has been proposed to allow this and we are to vote on that mechanism in a few weeks. The process would require first that the past commodore's membership be revoked and second that only members could sit on the Board. At this time outside board membership is welcome, just like at most organizations. We have had some influence peddling involving the big boat program. Such a burden. I am trying to stay out of that business but I am glad you brought up the notion of representation.

Frank L. Mighetto
representing SSSS

[frankofile]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Not only do I represent South Sound Sailing Society but I also represent the United Sates of America.

You most certainly do not represent the US. We have what's known as a diplomatic corps, or the Department of State which, for better or worse, represents our country. In that respect, you only represent your own pathetic, deluded, ignorant self. And if those qualities are representative of SSSS, then I'm glad I've never wasted a moment of my time there.

Originally Posted by mighetto

Frank L. Mighetto
representing SSSS

Apparently a long-winded, ineffectual, ignorant group of sailors, based on their claimed representation on this forum.

[oobayly]

Originally Posted by mighetto

...The Mac26 is well proven as an ocean sailer. Have you not followed Arrow on Sailing Anarchy and on the Macgregor board? There have been no less than 5 Mac26x vessels that have circumnavigated Vancouver Island where the brunt of today's storm is....

Frank L. Mighetto

Admittedly I had to do a google earth on Vancouver Island to see exactly what it looks like, it's pretty big, though not quite as long as the Round Ireland race. A great deal of it looks like it's in pretty sheltered waters.
Frank, please explain to me why this makes the Max26 a proven ocean racer.

Just for interest, I've scaled a Mac-26X to a Mini-Transat waterline length.
Frank they're just not comparable, so why do you insist comparing them.

[marshmat]

There is quite a difference between circling Vancouver and crossing the Pacific. I think Ooblay's little scale drawing says it all with regards to comparing a Mac and a race boat.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by oobayly

Admittedly I had to do a google earth on Vancouver Island to see exactly what it looks like, it's pretty big, though not quite as long as the Round Ireland race. A great deal of it looks like it's in pretty sheltered waters.
Frank, please explain to me why this makes the Max26 a proven ocean racer.

Just for interest, I've scaled a Mac-26X to a Mini-Transat waterline length.
Frank they're just not comparable, so why do you insist comparing them.

Start another thread, and I will gladly contribute. The similarities run from the aluminumm masts to water ballast to twin rudders and even articulating bow sprits that have been mounted on at least one Mac26. You probably are unaware that both the SSSS online board and the MacGregor board are down. Niether of the board operator's will admit to this but there is a strong likelyhood that borh forums have been hampered by the win-at-any-cost, influence-peddling fun-sucking topdowners we usually find sailing the "big boats". This forum is primarily about the TP52s which I hearby refure to as the King (for they are not female in form) of the boats that Top Downers operate in lubberly fashon. Of course there are exceptions. But the kings ware no cloths. Lets compare the TP52s to the SC70s and Mac70s here. Far enough? Neither of these vessels have the support of US Sailing btw. They are simply tolerated as they are at SSSS. There is something to be learned here about the Future of Yacht Design. I do not think the culture of the big boaters is a culture that can be supported any more at least not by tax dollars ala US Sailing.

Frank L. Mighetto
member US Sailing

[TP 52 Defender]

How do neither of those vessels have the support of US sailing? The TP52's are about to have their World's in Miami with a US sailing RC and US sailing / ISAF judges..... Frank you need to finaly admit you don't have a very good grip on sailing and even less of a grip on what it takes to sail, run, own a TP52. As to TP52's in your area - I hope the Glory boys get a better grip on the boat before the worlds start (I think the learning curve may have got the better of them).

Also most big boat sailors also sail small boat the culture you dislike is racing sailors - is this in envy or ignorance?

[oobayly]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The similarities run from the aluminumm masts to water ballast to twin rudders...

Frank L. Mighetto
member US Sailing

Aluminium mast, so does my Laser, so does the X362 I race on, in fact most boats I know of have aluminium masts.
Water ballast, this has been discussed repeatedly.
Twin rudders, from any photos, the rudders are vertical, if they are to be effect when heeling, they should be canted to the outside of the boat so the leeward rudder is vertical. I suspect the reason that the Mac has a twin rudders is because it has a dirty great big engine where the rudder would normally be on a boat that size.

for they are not female in form

is the Mac26 female in form

Please explain why a circumnavigation is offshore, you can do the whole thing within sight off land.

Getting back to the topic, IMHO a TP52 is damn sexy boat, I'd give my right arm to race on one. They've proved they're name is just.

Originally Posted by TP 52 Defender

Also most big boat sailors also sail small boat the culture you dislike is racing sailors - is this in envy or ignorance?

Too bloody right! (I reckon it's ignorance though, an envious sailor wouldn't race a power boat)

[Shife]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The Mac26 is well proven as an ocean sailer. Have you not followed Arrow on Sailing Anarchy and on the Macgregor board? There have been no less than 5 Mac26x vessels that have circumnavigated Vancouver Island where the brunt of today's storm is. Of course you do this kind of thing in-season. Not Now.
Frank L. Mighetto

I take it you're referring to Zeno's Arrow? The same guy who's almost as nutty as you? That guy doesn't take that thing offshore. He even admitted it in one of the SA threads. He has it shipped to his destination and then putters around with it, pretending he's some kind of wild adventurer. Even that guy's not stupid enough to try to cross an ocean with a Mac26. What will it take to get you to understand that circling an island has nothing in common with crossing an ocean?