TP52s

[DLackey]

Originally Posted by mighetto

those of us in other fleets were caught in the charge.

Frank L. Mighetto

Looks like just YOU were caught in the charge.

With 10 minutes to go before you even get a preperatory signal, what were you doing in the starting area?

[Rolltacker]

Frank,
I too saw that start and was in it on board a J-33. We got a great start, because we heard the horns and saw the flags. The start was not "Early"

Others were on time as well, because they too followed the sailing instructions.

You were on port tack crossing a starboard fleet of boats that go twice as fast as you. Give me a break! What part of the rules of racing do you not understand?

I say this with sincere hope that you will see that the whole world isn't out to get you, but rather that we are all playing by a set of rules and expect you to do so as well.

DO NOT make up ficticious scenarios of how you were "hunted". I saw the whole thing and you were not only "Not Racing" but also on port tack. Why would boats "Hunt" a non-racing port tacker?

What harms our sport is persons who can't follow the rules and then blame everyone else for their lack of preperation and understanding of the rules.
You're logic is scarily resemblant of the Bush White House.

Also, common sense should apply if you are not confident in your sailing abilities. If there is a big boat coming at you, or better yet, 10 of them, don't keep sailing toward them! Especially when on port tack.

Based on your flawed perceptions of reality how are we to trust any of your Backgrounds, Perceptions, or Conclusions or take you seriously for any matter?

[RHough]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Because of this race I suspect that all races will be under VHF control in the near future. Currently SSSS implemented an extra shot 1 minute from the start that is meant to clear the course.

Frank L. Mighetto

VHF starts are for wankers that can't tell time for 5 minutes.

An extra gun at 60 seconds is for wankers that can't tell time for 4 minutes.

Being able to time a start from the committee boat signal is a BASIC racing skill.

Those without basic skills should not be racing.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by mighetto

...a poorly executed race...

It must have been, since they started it with Murrelet and it's crew not more then one mile away from the starting line...

Originally Posted by mighetto

Currently SSSS implemented an extra shot 1 minute from the start that is meant to clear the course.

In other words: A warning sign saying "Murrelet - this is your last chance! GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!"

[frankofile]

Frank, based on your "briefing" outline above, we can add One-Design racing to the already very long list of sailing topics you apparently know nothing about. How do I know? Well, for starters, OD classes don't evolve or have "generations", and the TP52 is a box-design, not a one-design class. The many clubs that have very strong year-round OD programs would laugh at you for telling people that they are detracting from the sailing experience.

By the way, the standard starting sequence, which is spelled out in the RRS, includes sound signals one minute after the warning and one minute before the start.

[Buc]

Actually, Soren's not far off. The extra signal is meant to tell boats in the later starts that it's time to give room to those in the first start, please. Alas, Frank's far from the only offender.

As for "charging the start," I thought that was the whole idea. Start first and cover, as Gene Sibold used to say.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

Frank, based on your "briefing" outline above, we can add One-Design racing to the already very long list of sailing topics you apparently know nothing about. How do I know? Well, for starters, OD classes don't evolve or have "generations", and the TP52 is a box-design, not a one-design class. The many clubs that have very strong year-round OD programs would laugh at you for telling people that they are detracting from the sailing experience.

By the way, the standard starting sequence, which is spelled out in the RRS, includes sound signals one minute after the warning and one minute before the start.

So how did the race management seminar go? I suspect VHF use was discussed. Such is the future of race design. Intimidation of modern smaller boats will be less of a problem in the future, I suspect. How that behavior became part of the sport is a commentary on society at large. In theory, sailboat racing is a non contact sport and PHRF racing never was meant for TP52s, or Windward Leeward courses (where the big race boats do well) for that matter. Now the commentary…

Let me give you a birds eye view of what is happening with sailboat racing in the Pacific Northwest. Owing to Homeland Security there is great reluctance to re-establish the big boat race venue. That reluctance comes not only from the Federal Government but also from the Port of Seattle which is now embroiled in a scandal involving charities. It had been common for Port Board Members to donate Port funds to charities of which they were board members. This is not unlike what may happen at SSSS this year.

I have never understood charitable giving which is frustrating to me because I was trained in the theory of that prior to establishing a string of medical centers in the Pacific Northwest. That culture (called kindly a culture of giving) I just could not fathom.

It turns out that the culture of giving is in reality part of the culture of corruption we are now dealing with big time in the US. Let’s not see SSSS funds go to any charity that has SSSS board members on it. The Port of Seattle has put a moratorium on all of that kind of giving. It is no longer viewed as appropriate. Back to TP52s..

Regarding race venues for TP52s in the Pacific Northwest. There has to be a reason why TP52 one design is an agenda item for PHRF-NW next Sunday. PHRF racing has always allowed one-design racing within the PHRF race venue. All that is needed is five vessel owners to ask for it. I suspect that this requirement for 5 is what the TP52 advocates want to address. They would like say 2 to be the minimum. The need for that is representative of weakness in the boat's design. They simply were not designed for post 9/11 race courses. They can not get the race permits needed to race their own venues.

I am more familiar with one-design than I need to be to speak about it. There are over 200 Mac26x vessels (my ride) in my sailing area. What I have come to see is that putting a vessel into a one design group within a PHRF race marginalizes that group of racers. We have the Santana's at SSSS to look at. They make the big racers look slow. God Bless them. Their owners reject one-design within a PHRF race. It infuriates J-boat owners.

If TP52 owners want to burden our race fleets because they can not get race permits then let them pay 75 percent of the operating costs of PHRF-NW for that. This is the kind of cut other groups get when another wishes to put on a joint conference. After all, there is competition for sponsorship and charitable giving going on with the cooperation of a combined venue.

Preferably the requirement for 5 boats will not be waived. I just hate to encourage the dumping of this failed design into our area. The areas that built the vessels should be the areas where one-design TP52 racing is supported. That pretty much is the way of other one design racers. Not a one TP52 will ever be built on the west coast of the US because in spite of the name these boats were designed for east coast and Mediterranean waters.

By the way, the only boat that had to alter course in the photo was the multi-hull. The great Rod Tharp, a former Macgregor sailor, was operating the vessel and Murrelet was in reverse trying to avoid the Tripp. I am more a fan of Sudie’s that Rod. This kind of thing is the reason. More and more SSSS boats are doing as I do. Keeping the motor ready for collision avoidance. It’s a good thing that our club allows. If the engine is engaged you must start 5 minutes late.

[usa2]

Frank, my radio controlled boats make big boats look slow given the right conditions. Nobody gives a damn.

Another thing, where is there one design TP52 racing? The TP52 class is not one design, its a BOX RULE. The purpose of a box rule is to have boats that are relatively near each other in performace while they can be slightly optimized for upwind or offwind work.

It seems to me that the reason you make your posts so long is that people then get bogged down in so much rubbish that they dont know what to post.

[mholguin]

For the benefit of non-US residents who cannot understand quote post 9/11 end quote racing, are they any limitations to racing?

Please understand this is a legitimate question, not trying to make fun or anything...

Marino

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mholguin

For the benefit of non-US residents who cannot understand quote post 9/11 end quote racing, are they any limitations to racing?

Please understand this is a legitimate question, not trying to make fun or anything...

Marino

The largest ferry system in the US is in Washington State. That was true prior to 9/11 as it is today. Cruise Ships doing the Alaskan Inside Passage were not as common prior to 9/11 as they are now. A lot of US cruise ship passangers just prefer to cruise waters that are protected from terrorists.

Boaters are limited in how close they can come to a public vessel such as a ferry or cruise ship in the post 9/11 world.

You must also slow down to a speed just before loosing rudder control when approaching a public vessel and that applies to sailboats under sail. In addition, rather lax enforcement of the requirement for a race permit have become rather strict. Best I can tell, the existing race courses that are run regualarly continue to get permits. Anything new - like OD courses for TP52s gets turned down.

San Franciso Bay has never had the large ferry system or cruise business supported by Puget Sound but it also has shallows that limit the courses suitable for TP52 racing and the bridges were identified as terrorist targets shortly after 9/11. The big race boats can carry a lot of explosives as well as disgruntled crew. Thats a joke. Personally, I don't think the measures taken for security provide that. Its been good for Safe Boat. San Diego race venues have got to be severely limited post 9/11. Thats all military - all over. There really isn't a place for TP52s on the west coast. Since many of the TP52s do not pass the capsize risk screening ratio, there really isn't a place for them on open ocean venue's either. Perhaps one of sounds on the West Side of Vancouver Island could be made into a home - but then this is wilderness. I don't think it would be allowed because of that.

Frank L Mighetto

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by usa2

Frank, my radio controlled boats make big boats look slow given the right conditions. Nobody gives a damn.

Another thing, where is there one design TP52 racing? The TP52 class is not one design, its a BOX RULE. The purpose of a box rule is to have boats that are relatively near each other in performace while they can be slightly optimized for upwind or offwind work.

It seems to me that the reason you make your posts so long is that people then get bogged down in so much rubbish that they dont know what to post.

Radio control boats? I thought you were a multihuller? We were looking at those in Portland this weekend. You are half correct on the TP52. From a business man's perspective, the faster the design is relegated to one-design the greater the failure of the design. I am predicting TP52s will be raced one-design very soon. You can kind of see that happening by reviewing Sunday's PHRF agenda.

http://www.phrf-nw.org/PDF.%20forms/...2006AGENDA.PDF

But this is all missing the point. The main point is that ORC, formerly a part of US Sailing, was rejected from that organization for inappropriate Top Down influence that was bleeding US Sailing of assets that should have gone to the US Olympic teams. Nothing criminal possibly but by a preponderence of evidence there was wrong doing - that wrong doing being classified as material by US Sailing. There was a material short fall of I think 8 million dollars from the US Olympic Team fund. I suspect the missing funds went for support of offshore racing on boats like TP52s. That climate of corruption is what we work against today and it lives in the very Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) likely used by Sudie Parker to rate boats for PHRF NW.

The new ORC, no longer affiliated with US Sailing, but now likely working against it, has also rejected the VPP which use to be sold through US Sailing to organizations like PHRF NW and was developed by Jim Teeters. This VPP is being rejected as being not scientific, This being documented in SeaHorse International.

Not scientific means cheating. It is my opinion that the PHRF rating for a TP52 is significantly favorable towards that design because of the use of the VPP developed by the design's primary sponser, Jim Teeters.

Frank L. Mighetto

Do you all realize that in early January, Bush made harrassment by Internet punishable with 2 years of prison if the poster did not identify him/her self with his or her real name? I suspect the paid trolls have lost their jobs owing to that.

[Shife]

Frank, you are a liar and a fraud. You have zero credibility to back up your ridiculous posts. Do the world a favour and stop posting. In fact, stop sailing as well, the waters are safer without someone as ignorant as you on them.

mholguin:

There are no limitations in the US with regards to racing due to 9/11. Some waterways now have restricted zones and a few clubs have had to change their courses due to this. Contrary to what Frankie is telling you, Homeland Security has never denied a permit for racing due to boat size, type, color, make, model, draft, etc. If the proposed course permit gets denied, it has nothing to due with TP-52's, Mac26's, or 30 meter maxi's, it's because it interferes with shipping or a restricted area. As long as the proper permits are obtained, it's business as usual in the US. How anyone could possibly take Mighetto's conspiracy theories seriously is beyond me. I guarantee you that if Frank bought a Hobie 33 tomorrow, that suddenly he'd be claiming that Sudie Parker, Jim Teeters, and PHRF-NW, are all secretly conspiring to drive out and unfairly rate Hobie 33's. Just like he has been ever since he got his McCrap26.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by mighetto

That climate of corruption is what we work against today and it lives in the very Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) likely used by Sudie Parker to rate boats for PHRF NW.

The new ORC, no longer affiliated with US Sailing, but now likely working against it, has also rejected the VPP which use to be sold through US Sailing to organizations like PHRF NW and was developed by Jim Teeters. This VPP is being rejected as being not scientific, This being documented in SeaHorse International.

Not scientific means cheating. It is my opinion that the PHRF rating for a TP52 is significantly favorable towards that design because of the use of the VPP developed by the design's primary sponser, Jim Teeters.

Since when does PHRF use a VPP?

From PHRF-NW:
Since 1966 there have only been four Chief Handicappers, Walt Little, Peter Jennings, Bill Nelson and our present Chief Handicapper Arden Newbrook. Currently there are a total of 55 Handicappers, reporting to the Chief Handicapper who have the sole discretion to determine the PHRF-NW handicap ratings. Together, all Handicappers constitute a Handicappers Council, which can override the decisions of individual Handicappers. The Handicappers Council, chaired by the Chief Handicapper, supervises the task of keeping ratings fair and equitable throughout the fleet. Handicaps are issued based solely upon the information and data for a boat provided by individual owners.

You measure your own boat Frank, just like everyone else.

Also from PHRF-NW:
E. BOATS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR PHRF-NW ARE:
1. LOA less than 18 feet.
2. Centerboard monohulls with no ballast for self-righting.

This means that you have fill the ballast tank on your MAC26X or you cannot get a handicap for it. Correct me if I miss-read the manufactures documents that state: IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)

If you were to try to race your 26X with less than full ballast aboard, would you be ... cheating?

Please site any VPP that US Sailing sold to anyone. The rating VPP is secret, always has been. PHRF doesn't use a VPP anyway.

Frank, I hate to see anyone get beat up like you do, but you are so wrong I can't help but add a comment also.

[frankofile]

What the hell does this mean?

Originally Posted by mighetto

PHRF racing has always allowed one-design racing within the PHRF race venue. All that is needed is five vessel owners to ask for it.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by RHough

Since when does PHRF use a VPP?

From PHRF-NW:
Since 1966 there have only been four Chief Handicappers, Walt Little, Peter Jennings, Bill Nelson and our present Chief Handicapper Arden Newbrook. Currently there are a total of 55 Handicappers, reporting to the Chief Handicapper who have the sole discretion to determine the PHRF-NW handicap ratings. Together, all Handicappers constitute a Handicappers Council, which can override the decisions of individual Handicappers. The Handicappers Council, chaired by the Chief Handicapper, supervises the task of keeping ratings fair and equitable throughout the fleet. Handicaps are issued based solely upon the information and data for a boat provided by individual owners.

You measure your own boat Frank, just like everyone else.

Also from PHRF-NW:
E. BOATS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR PHRF-NW ARE:
1. LOA less than 18 feet.
2. Centerboard monohulls with no ballast for self-righting.

This means that you have fill the ballast tank on your MAC26X or you cannot get a handicap for it. Correct me if I miss-read the manufactures documents that state: IF THE BALLAST TANK IS NOT COMPLETELY FULL, THE BOAT IS NOT SELF RIGHTING. (IF YOU CHOOSE TO OPERATE THE BOAT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, SEE THE SECTION ON OPERATING THE BOAT WITHOUT WATER BALLAST.)

If you were to try to race your 26X with less than full ballast aboard, would you be ... cheating?

Please site any VPP that US Sailing sold to anyone. The rating VPP is secret, always has been. PHRF doesn't use a VPP anyway.

Frank, I hate to see anyone get beat up like you do, but you are so wrong I can't help but add a comment also.

In 2003 the PHRF Seattle Regional Sub-Council proposed a revision to the rating protocol to address water-ballasted boats.


It was noted that these boats are able to significantly alter their displacement and stability characteristics by dumping ballast water without penalty. Accordingly, a proposal was made to prohibit ballast water dumping during a race. The proposal elicited much discussion but no Motions. It was agreed that the base rating for these boats should be predicated on their optimum speed potential which is presumed to include changes in ballasted configuration during racing. The Council will continue to monitor these boats and adjust their base ratings under review or appeal if warranted.

There have been other rules developed to help us race. As these rules are implemented the fixed keel boats become less and less attractive to purchasers and crew. I love chatting about these developements. The current Macgregor model is limited to ballast only operation. My ride the Mac26x was intended by the manufacturer to be raced ballasted or unballasted. The centerboard on the vessel is water filled as are the rudders.

We do race unballasted and ballasted. Like the large race boats (TP52s being a possible exception) every turn comes at a great cost of about 10 boat lengths. Contary to popular opinion, water ballasted vessels perform better in rough conditions.

Before you prepare your claim of cheating note the following from the Mac26x brochure:

Here are your sailing choices: (1) With the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26x is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginner. (2) With the big genoa jib or spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Without water ballast, it is one of the wildest and potentially fastest sailboats around. Under power (1) without water ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted power boat. ... Quick, stable and responsive, the revolutionary MacGregor 26 is the fastest and best handling of any of the trailerable cruising sailboats.

The discussion of TP52 design always brings up the Mac26x design because the overall issue is fixed fin vs movable ballast and the TP52 box rules included specification for training vessels of 26 foot size. The mac25x is not a race boat but they are race training vessels and are exactly the kind of vessel that will grow the sport in the US. The other reason TP52 and Mac26x are linked is that Jim Teeters went out of his way to portray the vessels as dangerous.

I could be wrong on the VPP use withing PHRF NW. I have been feed this information and it remains unverified. This is one of the things I am interested in finding out on Sunday. However, I can verify that Teeters did indeed develop such a program and it was indeed peddled through US Sailing to raters. While rating Murrelet I was told to request a program that was being used to rate and have assumed it was Teeters. I can also verify that Sudie Parker rates the Seattle boats and John Marten the Olympia boats. It is likely John's unbiased and scientific rating methods that have attracted so many racers to SSSS and away from the Seattle latitude clubs where Sudie Parker can work her wrong doing. We are the third largest race fleet, soon to eclipes that and best I can tell it is all related to Sudie and her big boat bias. John measured my sails


Frank L. Mighetto