Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors
  #1  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:05 AM
valery gaulin valery gaulin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Rep: 10 Posts: 56
Location: Montréal
Tjalk - Sailing Dutch barge

Anybody familiar about sailing Dutch barge on this site. I love the look of them but would like to know more about them.

I am considering of maybe building a sailing Dutch Barge in the 30 foot long X 12 foot beam. Mainly for cruising around the great loop, the intercoastal water ways and some jump in the Bahamas and Cuba.

Would like to know if anybody is familiar with the design of such weird looking sailboat, Tjalk.

Seams like a good option for livebility compared to a catamaran in the same lenght.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:47 PM
JosephT's Avatar
JosephT JosephT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Rep: 218 Posts: 461
Location: Roaring Forties
There are quite a few threads on this older Tjalk/Dutch sailing barge. The old style lee boards help it sail better. Despite this, from what I've read it doesn't handle well in strong winds & currents. Some people have installed bow thrusters to counteract the behavior.

Unless efficiency, speed & overall performance are not a factor, you might be better off with a Catamaran or a larger motorsail yacht with a larger cabin vs this barge type design. They are faster and more efficient on fuel if you need to motor along.

Fair winds /)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:32 PM
BertKu BertKu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 223 Posts: 2,175
Location: South Africa Little Brak River
Quote:
Originally Posted by valery gaulin View Post
Anybody familiar about sailing Dutch barge on this site. I love the look of them but would like to know more about them.

I am considering of maybe building a sailing Dutch Barge in the 30 foot long X 12 foot beam. Mainly for cruising around the great loop, the intercoastal water ways and some jump in the Bahamas and Cuba.

Would like to know if anybody is familiar with the design of such weird looking sailboat, Tjalk.

Seams like a good option for livebility compared to a catamaran in the same lenght.
I suggest that you look at the "Spiegel der Zeilvaart" publications. http://www.spiegelderzeilvaart.nl/ They might be able to put you onto the right place for the plans. A tjalk is actual an inland sailboat. Maybe you could look at other designs which will be more suitable for what you would like to do. Bert

Last edited by BertKu : 02-16-2017 at 03:35 PM. Reason: be able to put
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-16-2017, 06:28 PM
pogo's Avatar
pogo pogo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rep: 73 Posts: 287
Location: germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertKu View Post
A tjalk is actual an inland sailboat.
Dutch barge ?
Tjalk ?
Skûtje ?
Schokker , a. s. o. .....
Those boats and ships have a long evolution. Over centuries the dutch have developed for each district, each area special designs .
The biggest merchant ships were able to sail to Australia.
The famous and very popular Lemsteraak is nowadays built as a fast luxury crruiser with excellent performance under wind against current conditions with short waves.
http://www.heechbydemar.nl/scheepswe...kker-kentering

There are shallow water merchant crafts with low aspect ratio leeway boards , about 20m long, for friesche meeren ( lakes )
. Nowadays sailed very hard til capsizing.
http://d19vj6yy87fjj8.cloudfront.net...lemsteraak.jpg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skûtsjesilen

There are cruising oriented Schouuws , seaworthy Zeeschouws , Schokkers with high aspect boards.
http://www.heechbydemar.nl/scheepswe...kker-kentering

Tjalk ?
There exist at least a dozen different types !!!!!
Pleit, Poon, Kaag, Kraak, Mutte , Otterschipp, ......
With Skûtjes the same, also Clippers a. s. o.
Vollenhovense Bol -- The little Lemsteraak for the poor man...


Dutch barges, in dutch "plattbodems" , are a whole own world, a galaxy. These " Tjalks" , these boats and ships with leeboards expand from pond sailers to ocean merchant ships.
http://www.botentekoop.nl/rubriek/platbodems-zeil




Few years ago a dutch mAgazine organised a race between an X 44 of 7.4 tons and a 30 ton high end equiped Aak of similar length :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S_Lt8YRMgyY


I hope there is a dutch member who can tell us more about " plattbodems".
I'm only interested i these boats ' cause of her shallow draft and enormous living space.
I admire these boats very much. I don't wanna have such a boat. active , sporty sailing is too hard -- two boards , cutter gaff rigg, a lot of wood to paint annually, fighting against rust ......
I admire these boats and their owners ( when their boat is in a good condition) .

pogo


A more "modern"style; centerboarded, seaworthy , modern rigg, GRP
http://www.nazeeuw.nl/noordkaper-31cabin/
__________________
Immer handflach Wasser unter`m Schwertschlitz !
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:12 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Rep: 212 Posts: 797
Location: Sydney Australia
Did they provide any elapsed times for the race between the X 44 and the Aak? It's hard to draw any conclusions without knowing how long the race was and the finishing times.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:46 PM
Angélique's Avatar
Angélique Angélique is offline
aka Angel (only by name)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rep: 1608 Posts: 1,338
Location: Belgium
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by valery gaulin View Post

I am considering of maybe building a sailing Dutch Barge in the 30 foot long X 12 foot beam. Mainly for cruising around the great loop, the intercoastal water ways and some jump in the Bahamas and Cuba.

Would like to know if anybody is familiar with the design of such weird looking sailboat, Tjalk.
For the intended purpose and size better go for a ---> Lemsteraak ---> Images ---> Videos

- The flush deck versions are called: Visserman Lemsteraak = Fisherman Lemsteraak

- The trunk cabin versions are called: Lemsteraakjacht = Lemsteraak Yacht

- There many Lemsteraak designers, builders, plans & kit suppliers, etc...

- Some Lemsteraak examples: (start a translator for the links)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 1991 built Lemsteraak: VA 114 - Visotter - De Boer design - Gebr. Hummel in Lemmer built -

Quote:
Here's the Visotter pushed too much in a race, getting in a near knockdown, recovers, and goes on...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lemsteraak near Knockdown - Picture sequence from Lemmer Ahoy 2013 -
---> at the pictures from 7:12 to 9:55 the Visotter goes ± 85° down - recovers - and goes on . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- Blom ---> New build steel casco's ---> Lemsteraak - starts at L 9.50 m x B 3.72 m ---> follow the navigation bar... ---> e.g. Bouwpakketten = Kits ---> etc...

Quote:

max CNC plasma cutting capacity = 8 m x 2.5 m x 20 mm
- - below will become a Lemsteraakjacht


- - below will become a Visserman Lemsteraak


- - below will become a Lemsteraakjacht


- - below will become a Lemsteraakjacht
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 2012 built Lemsteraak: HA 10 - Ventjager ---> start a translator ---> follow the navigation bar...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 1957 built Lemsteraak: VA 18 - De Groene Draeck - A. de Boer & G. de Vries Lentsch Sr. design - Shipyard G. de Vries Lentsch Jr. built -

- Owned since new by the former Dutch Queen, which got this 15 m (49' 2½") Lemsteraak as a present at her 18th birthday . .

Quote:

- - - - - - - - - - click pic to enlarge - - - - - - - - - - 29 August 1959 - - - - - - - - - -


- - - - - 21 August 2005 - - - - - Sail Amaterdam 2005 - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
__________________
Angélique

Last edited by Angélique : Yesterday at 06:52 AM. Reason: fixed broken link
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-17-2017, 12:36 AM
Angélique's Avatar
Angélique Angélique is offline
aka Angel (only by name)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rep: 1608 Posts: 1,338
Location: Belgium
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by pogo View Post

- - Dutch barge - - I hope there is a dutch member who can tell us more about "plattbodems" - -
Good part of what you named there are originally fisherman boat types and not barges, also many are round bottomed and not flat, I'm Belgian . . .

A lot are "rondbodem" = "round bottomed" and not "platbodem" = "flat bottomed" since the latter means "transversal flat bottomed", and for the barges also little or no longitudinal rocker.

The originally Dutch fisherman boat types* have centuries of development behind them to go out further and in rougher seas then the old inland barge types, so the fisherman boat types are better suited by descent, and also by newer developments, for the in post #1 intended use, then the old barges for whom time stood still the last century.

* Such as the: Schokker, Lemsteraak, Hoogaars, Hengst, Zeeuwse Schouw, Texelse Blazer, (many types of) Botter, Pluut, Zeeshouw (aka Spekbak), Bons, Kwak, (town name) Bol, Zeepunter, etc...

Tjalk and Skûtsje= a Frisian type are Dutch inland barge types, and they will end badly when caught out at sea on a not so good day, with a little exception for a 25 m+ Zeetjalk (that's a kinda Sea Tjalk).
Dr T. Huitema MSc - Yacht Designer ---> Types Ronde en Platbodemjachten = Types of Round and Flat Bottomed Yachts
Quote:
- - - - - -
Rondbodem = Round Bottomed - - - - - - - - - - - - Platbodem = Flat Bottomed
Some more bottom types in this genre ~ Flat ~ Round ~ Multi Chine + Flat ~ etc. ---> Dutch Wikipedia:
~ Platbodem ~ Tjalk ~ Skûtsje ~ Skûte ~ Schouw = Scow, historic types. ~ Rondbouw = Round Build ~
__________________
Angélique

Last edited by Angélique : Yesterday at 04:44 PM. Reason: added the gray info part to the penultimate in-line link, and enhanced typo.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-17-2017, 03:59 AM
BertKu BertKu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 223 Posts: 2,175
Location: South Africa Little Brak River
Quote:
Originally Posted by pogo View Post
Dutch barge ?
Tjalk ?
Skûtje ?
Schokker , a. s. o. .....

The biggest merchant ships were able to sail to Australia.
Refer to Wikipedia "De tjalk is een historisch zeilend vrachtschip voor de binnenwateren. De naam werd in de 17e eeuw voor het eerst gebruikt om schepen met ronde boeg aan te duiden. Dit scheepstype kent vele uitvoeringen.", Binnenwateren, I did not know, we could via Germany go to Australia? Bert
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:27 PM
Angélique's Avatar
Angélique Angélique is offline
aka Angel (only by name)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rep: 1608 Posts: 1,338
Location: Belgium
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post

Did they provide any elapsed times for the race between the X 44 and the Aak? It's hard to draw any conclusions without knowing how long the race was and the finishing times.
The race video shows the in Aken-circles highly controversial 2010 Blom* built 15.5 m Lemsteraak VA 210 Warber, with her by Van Oossanen Naval Architects fully CFD redesigned hull and every piece fully CAD redesigned + optimised, and CAM built by Blom, including the stronger and stiffer and 50% lighter as before CAD/CAM built, internal and external 100% round, as well as the inner and outer diameter and the wall thickness tapered all the way up, woden mast. Warber was caught cheating the class rules for the hull form after building her, while the whole design was approved by the class organization before building. Then after some hull modifications she got a only once granted permanent dispensation for the rest of the non compliant hull issues, since the build was started before the new class rules for the hull form became effective, that's this Aak's story in kinda short. Dirk Blom, the builder, owner, and also the skipper of Warber in the race video, tells here about her features Video in Dutch in Feb. 2011 before the whole class rule controversy took place. Jan de Vries, owner and skipper in the race video of the 12.19 m X-40 Eala PDF, has here a note online in Dutch about the race. This Aak's NA Pieter Van Oossanen has here the magazine article about the race online PDF in Dutch, the text is copyable, so it can be put in an automatic translator. At the end of the race video Dirk Blom tells the Aak was beaten on less maneuverability around the buoys, and also on less acceleration performance. I would like to see them race on a really long course . .
* Note: I've just marked the Blom Shipyard section in post # 6 with a red - in the left margin, in order to find it back easy since they also appear in this post a few times.

P.S. - Blom Shipyard and Dirk Blom are related as family, but Dirk has his own Lemsteraken business, Blom Shipyard did built the hull of Warber.
__________________
Angélique

Last edited by Angélique : Yesterday at 08:02 PM. Reason: added P.S.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-17-2017, 07:08 PM
pogo's Avatar
pogo pogo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rep: 73 Posts: 287
Location: germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angélique View Post
-
For the intended purpose and size better go for a ---> Lemsteraak ---> Images ---> Videos

- The flush deck versions are called: Visserman Lemsteraak = Fisherman Lemsteraak

- The trunk cabin versions are called: Lemsteraakjacht = Lemsteraak Yacht

- There many Lemsteraak designers, builders, plans & kit suppliers, etc...

- Some Lemsteraak examples: (start a translator for the links)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 1991 built Lemsteraak: VA 114 - Visotter - De Boer design - Gebr. Hummel in Lemmer built -

Here's the Visotter pushed too much in a race, getting in a near knockdown, recovers, and goes on...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lemsteraak near Knockdown - Picture sequence from Lemmer Ahoy 2013 -
---> at the pictures from 7:12 to 9:55 the Visotter goes ± 85° down - recovers - and goes on . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- Blom ---> New build steel casco's ---> Lemsteraak - starts at L 9.50 m x B 3.72 m ---> follow the navigation bar... ---> e.g. Bouwpakketten = Kits ---> etc...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 2012 built Lemsteraak: HA 10 - Ventjager ---> start a translator ---> follow the navigation bar...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- 1957 built Lemsteraak: VA 18 - De Groene Draeck - A. de Boer & G. de Vries Lentsch Sr. design - Shipyard G. de Vries Lentsch Jr. built -

- Owned since new by the former Dutch Queen, which got this 15 m (49' 2½") Lemsteraak as a present at her 18th birthday . .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -





Very good post !
Thanks !



pogo
__________________
Immer handflach Wasser unter`m Schwertschlitz !
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:42 PM
valery gaulin valery gaulin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Rep: 10 Posts: 56
Location: Montréal
Thank you so much.

Indeed I need a Lemsteraakjacht 30foot long.

is steel the best matrial for these type of boats? What type of maintenance does steel need?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Yesterday, 02:46 AM
BertKu BertKu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 223 Posts: 2,175
Location: South Africa Little Brak River
Quote:
Originally Posted by pogo View Post
Very good post !
Thanks !



pogo
Fully agreed. Angelique did a nice job there.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Yesterday, 02:52 AM
BertKu BertKu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 223 Posts: 2,175
Location: South Africa Little Brak River
Quote:
Originally Posted by valery gaulin View Post
Thank you so much.

Indeed I need a Lemsteraakjacht 30foot long.

is steel the best material for these type of boats? What type of maintenance does steel need?
Look, you have very good wood in Canada, you can make it either from steel or wood. Each has so its own advantages. I personally would go for wood, buoyance is an important point. Bert
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Yesterday, 06:37 AM
M&M Ovenden M&M Ovenden is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rep: 527 Posts: 206
Location: Ottawa
Hi,

Nice thread with some beautiful boats. We also have very good steel in Canada - our structural steel is mostly 44W. These are pretty heavy displacement boats so steel would be a good fit. It's very easy to work with and consistent. The downside is the prep work for painting - sandblasting is not fun or easy so this must be a major consideration of the project.

Cheers,
Mark
Reply With Quote


  #15  
Old Yesterday, 08:50 AM
valery gaulin valery gaulin is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Rep: 10 Posts: 56
Location: Montréal
I am trying to figure out what type of ballast do these Lemsteraak have! Can't find any answer online. Is it because they don't have any and they only rely on hull from stability? It seams that they are very wide for their lenght.

Now if they don't have any ballast and they just rely on hull form stability having such a huge displacement it make sense to build out of steel. But would it not be better for stability if they would built the boat out of a lighter material than steel and use the weight save as ballast in the bottom of the boat? I am sure they have thought about that but maybe the pros vs the cons is negligeable this is the reason why they still make them out of steel.

I fell that I am missing something....


Second questions: How do they maintain their steel, they all seams to be so impecably maintain without any sign of rust. Do they paint every year their boat?
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dutch Barge Power requirement Mathilde Hydrodynamics and Aerodynamics 7 07-01-2016
10:34 AM 
Dutch barge for lake Ontario Jason Elliott Boat Design 23 08-20-2011
03:42 PM 
New design 12m Dutch Barge micspoko Boat Design 1 05-26-2011
10:24 AM 
Dutch barge model leggers Boat Design 24 05-08-2011
03:28 PM 
The new project I am working - Dutch Barge 12m micspoko Boat Design 5 05-04-2011
05:20 PM 

Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2017 Boat Design Net