Sydney Hobart

I do not care how you design, rule or try to control any type of a race. There is only 1 first place. A owner buys a boat, HE wants first place or nothing!! YOU ARE A HIRED GUN, captain. You tell him and mean it, " I will push the boat, crew and my self to win at every opening I can find. Do we have a understanding? Good!". That is the position of a good captain. Everything else means nothing to the 2 men. Do not fault them. They are RACING.

[CT 249]

........

[CT 249]

I spoke to a mate from sailing (windsurfing, not ocean racing) last night. He had a good perspective on the conditions of the Sydney-Hobart; he's a professional mariner, now an engineer on an oil-rig tender in Bass Strait (after working IIRC the Indian Ocean on big tankers for years).

They were in port for an unprecedented three days (because of the Xmas holidays stopping work on the rigs) from the 27th. However, they were in direct contact with the conditions out there from the rigs and from the fact that they know how the conditions in their exposed home port relate to what's happening in the Strait.

His call was 60 knot winds, 8 metre + swells. He also pointed out (as many S-H crews do) that the problem was the shallow nature of the Strait and the effect the southerly set has on kicking up the swells into steep and very nasty waves. HE confirmed that the Strait waves are much rougher than the open ocean rollers.

The conditions the S-H was getting, he said, were "horrendous" and in such winds, even on the 80m, 2000 tonne oil rig tender you could feel the whole bow shaking, actually see the ship bending (IIRC) and when off-watch, your bunk felt "as if someone had got the end of your bed and was shaking it as hard as they could". He said he was VERY glad he wasn't on a yacht in such stuff.

I found it interesting that a Bass Strait pro would say the conditions were nasty; they weren't blown up by the yachties.

Of course, that doesn't mean that driving the boat flat out through such conditions is smart......

[BrettM]

CT249. this guys name isn't "ash" by any chance?

[CT 249]

Got it in one......hope he doesn't mind me calling him a "mate", it's easier to type than "a guy who I know and who seems like a good bloke"...

[BrettM]

Bet he also has a brother called brett...

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I know it's been said before, Mike, but at the moment we DO have a rating system (in fact at least two of them) that allows "strong heavy wallowing tubs" to win.

So why do people sail lighter boats? Because they are more fun (to many racing sailors) and faster (which turns on some people).

The Hobart doesn't bear that one out. Perhaps the current rule is still a bit deficient ? It favours the larger boats presently (if they can hold together long enough to finish).

Light fast boats can be great fun in the right place but I think Bass strait was not the right place nor was it fun.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by BrettM

Bet he also has a brother called brett...

Ahhh, that'd be right. Don't you have a sportsboat of some sort? PS I won;t be able to reply, off to the Nationals tomorrow AM.

Mike, fun comes in all different ways doesn't it??? Last Hobart I did, I found it quite fun to go close-reaching across the Strait with the tiller in one hand, the traveller controls in the other, and the mainsheet on my lap. I was playing the little boat (2,400kg, 30') like a Laser under storm trysail. I was watch captain, helm and bowman, and it was lots of work but also challenging, intense and rewarding.

Would I have been happier on a 2,400 kg 30 footer with more accomodation, full positive flotation, less concentrated weight, heavier framing and a more seakindly shape? Yep.

Would I have been happier on a big heavy boat? It depends on the boat. On some of them it woould have been OK, on many it would have been a case of just having to endure the weather in a boat I could not enjoy sailing. On some heavy boats, there is no responsiveness or tweaking that distracts you, so you are free to concentrate on getting wet and bouncing. No fun for me.

So for some people, light IS fun in Bass Strait. And personally, I feel the failure rate of heavy boats is, as I've mentioned, little if at all better.

And Hobart is just one race per year. Why would you sail a heavy boat all year just to have a better boat for one race, when many people prefer a lighter boat for the other 51 weeks?

Anyway, I'm off down to Geelong to sail a big, heavy, slow old sailboard; the original Windsurfer nationals are on. One of the interesting things about sailing lots of classes is that you get to see both sides; sometimes you're on the side of the old traditional gear, sometimes on the side of modern lightweight stuff. It's all fun.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Mistral,

I think to open new post: Engineering in Modern Racing Yachts how do I promote that?

The easiest method would be to open the church for the Future of Yacht Design. (FOYD) Your flock of true sailing anarchists are waiting

[mistral]

Originally Posted by Richard Petersen

I do not care how you design, rule or try to control any type of a race. There is only 1 first place. A owner buys a boat, HE wants first place or nothing!! YOU ARE A HIRED GUN, captain. You tell him and mean it, " I will push the boat, crew and my self to win at every opening I can find. Do we have a understanding? Good!". That is the position of a good captain. Everything else means nothing to the 2 men. Do not fault them. They are RACING.

that's why I will force the owner to stay on board
Mistral

[K4s]

Originally Posted by Richard Petersen

I do not care how you design, rule or try to control any type of a race. There is only 1 first place. A owner buys a boat, HE wants first place or nothing!! YOU ARE A HIRED GUN, captain. You tell him and mean it, " I will push the boat, crew and my self to win at every opening I can find. Do we have a understanding? Good!". That is the position of a good captain. Everything else means nothing to the 2 men. Do not fault them. They are RACING.

This owner would not only like to have the first place but over and above that I want my boat back in one piece and ready to use tommorrow.
Any so called hired gun captain that doesnt understand that can go find another boat and the very best of luck to that sorry owner,We have NO understanding?Good F**K OFF and the sooner the better!
All that attitude shows is a total lack of respect to the owner and his equipment not to mention the rest of the crew.

[mistral]

K4S, I wouldn't be so sure, many owner are only attracted by competition, they're not wise sailor, they're primarily aggressive people addicted to victory and fame, they "play" sailing because this can give them an appearence of elegance and "noblesse", i don't think any Larry Ellison, for instance, would pull off his feet from metal in a race like sidney-hobart just to save his boat; the boat is just a means to reach his personal glory, crew is just a bunch of hired person; of course not all owners act this way, but they exists and are not so few as we may hope.....

Mistral

[K4s]

Mistral,I,m only talking about myself,I like to win but I like my boat and the guys I sail with.Then again I dont have millions of dollars to throw away being reckless with other peoples lives or the welfare of my boat.
K4s

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by Lorsail

Seems to me that the failure of Skandias system for whatever reason is being blown way out of proportion. There are canting keel boats now over half way in the Vendee and canting keel boats have had a 20+ year history of ocean sailing.
It was interesting that when Konica Minolta had trouble even a "famous" sailing writer -Peter Campbell- reported that she had a "massive canting keel". Sail-World and Scutllebutt replayed his story.
Coupled with the Skandia story canting keels became unsafe ,dangerous etc.
Of course Konica Minolta has a fixed keel not a canting keel...
The point is that any failure has to be analysed on a case by case basis not as part of a hysteria that could be based on false information-and is at least based on a lack of information.
Hopefully ,the failures that occured will be analysed and shared with the designers all over the world so that everybody learns something.
Don't put all canting keel designs/installations "in the same boat" because of one well publicized failure.

Doug, you make a great point. However, CBTF adds so much complexity to designs that are already pushed to the limit, increasing the chances of something going wrong. Whether this is appropriate for racing on the open ocean is worth discussing. Maybe it is, if the F1 analogy is used, or maybe not.

I am going to say how you eliminate all the " CRAP " from racing. Each CLASS has only one yard building the type of boat. Period! MOMIE. MOMIE. I can't cheat anymore easily. This is not fun, if I can't cheat somehow. In upstate N Y, the wealthy had CLASS BOATS. NO changes were allowed, repairs were exact material replacements. Beleive it or not those old boats are being refitted as original, EXCEPT for the linen sails. All the owners agreed. Why would they agree on that subject. I guess because when they race, they are are racing for that pleasure of belonging to a group of like MINDED people. People racing with PROS are crawling into a very strange bed with few house rules.