Stored Energy In Sailing Races

[SuperPiper]

In post #176 of the CBTF thread, ErikG raised the fundamental question:

" . . . legal and NOT illegal.
So someone please forgive my ignorance and help me out, what is legal these days?

Powered canters, ok
Powered waterballast?
Powered winches?
Powered rig tuning via hydrualics?
Powered self steering (auopilot)?

I think that all of the above should be legal or none of them.
THAT is fair. So as long as the canters can use their engines to cant their keels, all of the others should be legal too.

I know that some of the above is acceptable under certain rules but not others, so help me out, allowed under what rules and where?"


I pondered this for a day and realized that ErikG was correct. Any stored energy could be considered "cheating".

Here are some examples:

A crew member on boat "A" had to be diverted to operate a manual bilge pump while boat "B" used a powered pump. Boat "B" would have the advantage.

Boat "A" used a windvane to steer. Boat "B" used a "smart" electronic autopilot.

In an oceanic race, boat "A" hauled tonnes of fresh water while boat "B" hauled kilograms of diesel for the powered desalinator.

Both boats utilized wind turbines and solar panels to harness energy from the environment. Boat "A" could use the electronics during the day or during windy nights. Boat "B" stored the energy in batteries and could use the electronics at will.


I don't believe that hand-pumped hydraulics need to be considered "powered".

What does the rest of the forum believe?

I think that Race Organizations and Classes have the right and obligation to address these concerns within the framework of the Racing Rules of Sailing.
Technology has raised and will raise all kinds of questions as time goes on-like the legality of the "wand" in controlling hydrofoil altitude and righting moment in some cases.
But it seems like the ISAF has provided a means to sort thru these questions under 86.1,a,b and c.

[usa2]

i think boats should be allowed to use stored energy as long as its use will not propel the boat forward.

The rule allowing classes or race committees to eliminate some rules does not specify anything about propulsion. In fact, under 86.1,a,b,c - rule 42(Propulsion) ,42.1 ,42.2,42.3
can be eliminated. Which brings up an interesting quandry: I can't find -anywhere- a rule that says paddling, engine power ect.is illegal except Rule 42 which can be overturned by the Race Committee or by a Class rule. Maybe I'm missing something...
In some of the rc model canting keel boats that I build the canting keel moves 52 to 55° with a speed from centerline to max cant of 1 to 1.5 seconds. If you move the transmitter stick fast from side to side the boat will move right along quite nicely....

[SuperPiper]

Originally Posted by usa2

i think boats should be allowed to use stored energy as long as its use will not propel the boat forward.

In the Volvo races, it had always been an emergency if a powered de-salinator broke down. One crew member per watch would be diverted from his racing capacity to operate the manual de-salinator. This boat would be disadvantaged compared to the rest of the fleet.

Could a case not be made that any stored energy gadget helps "propel" the boat forward by minimizing weight or by making the crew available for racing requirements?

Maybe the fix should be: the batteries must be dead flat at the start of the race and can only be charged from solar panels, wind turbines and human-powered generators. But, no diesel.

I admit that I am taking this discussion off the end of the spectrum. I am not about to ditch my batteries nor my outboard motor.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Lorsail

I can't find -anywhere- a rule that says paddling, engine power ect.is illegal except Rule 42 which can be overturned by the Race Committee or by a Class rule. Maybe I'm missing something...

I don't think you're missing anything. I think r 86 is used by the race committees for the Ensenada, last Sydney Hobart, and other races dating back to about '75 to allow "cruising division" entries to use their motors. I think it's what sailboards and 470s use to allow pumping that would normally be banned; I know we do it, we just alter the rules in the S.Is.

So it's perfectly legal to use unrestricted pumping or the motor for propulsion in a race, IF there's an alteration to the rules under r 86; the same sort of alteration that allows powered canters. So the Mac 26 that got "line honours" in the Ensenada was as legal as Skandia.

[usa2]

i meant that the use of stored power will physically make the boat move forward. Canting keels dont do that, except on radio control boats. Water ballast doesnt propel you forward because it has to exit the hull above water. All these things will indirectly make a boat faster, but they are not providing the main driving force

[gggGuest]

All these restrictions are arbitary limits that sailors set themselves for the sake of the game... Its difficult to say one is more wrong or right than another. Taking a related example, that of means of propulsion, I personally have a philosophical problem with flapping one's way around the track like a bird, but I find myself quite happy to use more subtle body movements to keep the boat moving in frustrating light air conditions. However one's technically as illegal as the other under the "normal" (ie without special exceptions) rules , and I certainly couldn't produce a hard wrong/right limit that would even be intelligible to me, let alone anyone else. I suppose the nearest I could get is that anything that approaches serious physical effort is unaccepptable to me, but is that philosophy or just unfitness?

[SuperPiper]

Perhaps stored energy has the biggest impact on a boat with only 1 crew.

One sailor plus 15 horses. . .

[CT 249]

"Anything that approaches serious physical effort is unaccepptable to me, but is that philosophy or just unfitness?"

I think it's just good sense. Since windsurfers allowed unrestricted pumping, the classes where it makes an impact have lost much of their fleet AFAIK. Unless you spend hours in the gym each week, you're totally uncompetitive. The same would apply in dinghies; in boats like Lasers you'd just roll your way around the course and the good amateurs would no longer be competitive. Even ocean racing sailors know that if you were becalmed 40 miles from the finish of a major race, you'd spend hours at a time throwing yourself from side to side to rock the boat and gain a few vital miles.

Pumping seems to be a classic case where people argue for it, but only when they haven't seen the extremes to which it is taken when allowed and the impact it has on the number of people sailing.

Stored energy may well be the same. If it becomes more popular and more refined, what will probably happen? The plumbing for pumping water around is already fairly complex and expensive AFAIK. If everyone is sailing with movable ballast, getting it across a second faster than the opposition will prove a vital edge at the top end. So CFD programmes will burn thousands of bucks ensuring that the flow through the pipes is perfect. We'll end up with sculpted elbows and inlets to allow laminar flow through the pipes. Plumbing manifolds etc are already hand-made, it will get more expensive. Ever more powerful and expensive pumps will be fitted. Engines will be chosen for their generating or pumping capacity, not their performance when driving a dismasted boat home. Or so it may well happen.

[Andy P]

i've noticed that in heavier underpowered dinghies eg finn, laser, 470, there is a lot of pumping and excess body movement, and sometimes legal unlimited pumping is allowed.
But in skiffy classes it doesn't seem to happen - perhaps because they are relatively overpowered and the hulls have less of a drag hump.

[Tim B]

It's always been known that the faster the canting keel goes across, or the faster the ballast water can move the faster you'll be around a tack, but come off it, you're not losing/gaining that much!!!

It's far more sensible for the designer to concentrate on making the hullshape and rig fast. to be honest the speed of movement of ballast is not such a huge problem.

This is more true in open ocean racing than in round the cans, but it still applies to a good extent. a fast hull with normal canting keel will beat a slow hull with a fast canting keel any day.

Incidentally, the keel should be vertical at the centre of a tack/gybe, and if you get it right you shouldn't have to de-power.

Stored energy (getting back on topic) may only be used for non-propulsive purposes. ie. those that do not cause a forward force.

Cheers,

Tim B.

[CT 249]

Yes, "a fast hull with normal canting keel will beat a slow hull with a fast canting keel any day". BUT what happens when a fast hull with a normal canting keel comes up against a fast hull with a fast canting keel? We've already got to this point, because two of the current canters (Pye and MG) are sisters and R/P are putting together a pair of 98' canters (the new Wild Goats and new Shocks).

It will be like many other things; at the top level, a tiny improvement can get you a half-boat length lead which puts you into the controlling position and there goes the race. This isn't ALWAYS the case; even in IOR there were the occasional breakthrough boats that succeeded despite being low tech (early Farrs, some Euro boats of the '80s etc) but then once everyone else copies the breakthrough, the fine details become vital once again - until the next breakthrough.

Secondly, while I can't claim to have much experience on shifting-ballast big boats, I can assure you that life on an Open 60 or at the helm of a VO 60 or a water-ballasted
84 (IIRC) does become quite interesting while ballast is being dumped to leeward before a tack or gybe. These boats are challenging enough to sail at the best of times, without trying to do it with the deck at 45 degrees. If one boat could hold onto its ballast for a couple of lengths more, it would get a significant advantage at marks etc.

Which is not, per se, a reason for banning anything - it's just that the cost/benefit ratio of such innovations are hard to work out at first.

CT, whats with the "Wild Goats"? What do you have against Bob Oately that you would do that? Is it the fact that he has one of the most succesfull CBTF programs ever or what?
Kinda silly to do that ,isn't it?

[cyclops]

I do not sail in sailboats normally but the general trend of your big boats is: Money wins, less money, also runs. Is that a fair statement? I find it very true in powerboats.----------------------------------------------- Only things not allowed are jets and rockets in the main drives. And we still have a jet jock trying every so often.