Stern cabin - too odd on small boats?

[Claus Riepe]

Recently, in one thread on small (20') cabin ketch sailers in another forum, someone proposed a stern cabin as opposed to the usual forward cuddy. I must say I was (still am) impressed by the concept.
Primarily, because all forward cuddies on such small boats suffer the same problems, the pointed bow does not lend itself to a double bed, the foredeck with the anchoring gear is difficult to access, and the cabin roof has to be heavily supported i.e. to be heavy in order to withstand the compression from the main mast and the weight of people working the mast or crossing over the roof.
However, the concept was rather violently opposed, the main reason being that a stern cabin would 'look too odd'.

What would you say?
BTW, the idea of a stern cabin came originally from the Atlantic rowing boats.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by Claus Riepe

Recently, in one thread on small (20') cabin ketch sailers in another forum, someone proposed a stern cabin as opposed to the usual forward cuddy. I must say I was (still am) impressed by the concept.
Primarily, because all forward cuddies on such small boats suffer the same problems, the pointed bow does not lend itself to a double bed, the foredeck with the anchoring gear is difficult to access, and the cabin roof has to be heavily supported i.e. to be heavy in order to withstand the compression from the main mast and the weight of people working the mast or crossing over the roof.
However, the concept was rather violently opposed, the main reason being that a stern cabin would 'look too odd'. What would you say?

Claus,

You make a good point that, between the narrow confines of the bow and the dominance of the mast, a forward cabin in a small sailboat has many disadvantages. IMHO the appearance of a small boat with an aft cabin, like any design, will depend on how the dimensional proportions are laid out. There are many motor sailers with relatively high freeboard and an aft pilothouse. They certainly do not look long and sleek, but they tend to look sturdy and functional. Here are a few samples:

[charmc]

Guillermo, a frequent contributor here and a naval architect with experience in small boats of different types, would have some good thoughts.

[tinhorn]

I think they look cooler than hell.

Compare an MG TD to a Lotus Europa - much different appearance, but both look good.

[PAR]

Tall deck structures, well aft will cause the boat to "march" around on it's hook or mooring and also has similar "ends" of the yacht, confines difficulties. Not so much the V shape typical of the bow, but the shallow, truncated shapes common is a stern. With typical freeboard been often considerably less then the forward sections, the space would be more confined (headroom wise) then a forward layout.

Another issue of importance, is what happens to the cockpit location which has to be moved forward. If the aft cabin arrangement has similar accommodations as a forward one, then the well forward, midship cockpit will be quite high (over the cabin below and probably a pretty wet place heading into weather. This is a common complaint in center cockpit craft now, of conventional arrangement

From a practical view point I think you'd be limited to craft of 30 LWL before the idea becomes particularly useful. Beginning with this size, considering a small aft cabin with a conventional layout forward is increasingly more practical. At 35' very doable.

Anything with a mast stepped on it will have to be heavily trussed, be this a deck or coach roof. The compression loads have to be transmitted to the keel and hull shell somehow. A compression post and tie rods can eliminate much of the "heavy" beam arrangements necessary without them. A single bulkhead under the step often doesn't absorb the loads as nicely as we like, as has been born in many production and custom yachts over the years.

In the end, many a workboat has incorporated a wheelhouse aft with a large working deck forward. This is a practical arrangement. The accommodations are typically quite minimal, enough to house the crew, engine and helm, but not much else. Again size is the key ingredient to permitting comfortable accommodations. At 30' you have enough beam to place berths on each side of the centerline mounted engine, with room to pass around the box. Smaller then this, clever engineering and ever increasing compromise must be employed to meet the design goals and provide useable spaces for humans.

[Claus Riepe]

Originally Posted by PAR

... I think you'd be limited to craft of 30 LWL before the idea becomes particularly useful. ...

Meaning, aft cabin concept quite useless for boats of 20 LWL?
- I think not.

In Atlantic rowing boats of 20 LWL -or even less than that- the aft cabin in connection with the raised bow makes the unballasted boats uncapsizeable (self-righting from inversion). Same would be possible for small coastal cruisers.
Then, an aft cabin does not obstruct the forward view of the sitting helmsman like all forward cuddies on small boats do.
Then, one could work the mast and foredeck from the safety of inside the cockpit, not from the roof of the cuddy.
Then, one could imagine the helmsman could steer the boat sitting inside the aft cabin, in foul weather.
Then, if there was an outboarder well inside the cabin, that well could occasionally double as a ... loo?

Agreed, on a small 20LWL sailboat nobody could make an aft cabin 'invisible'.
Someone said an aft cabin would make a small cruiser look like a sailing 'shoe'.
But hey, in my book form follows function, and there would be so many benefits from an aft cabin concept, I would not mind that look so much as to discard the concept altogether.

[alan white]

I've tried to put an aft cabin on a lot of designs and headroom always is an issue. This is in comparison with a forward house on the same boat. The height is also exaggerated becuase the sheer is usually lower aft.
The idea is appealing though, so it crops up from time to time. A small boat, under 30 ft, unless a high displacement (over, say, 15k lbs), won't have standing headroom without having a rather high looking aft cabin.
As it is, the aft cabin sole will be a postage stamp in any case as the hull rises quickly there. Perfect for a vee berth, however, or better still, a toilet/sail locker/workbench area. Even without headroom, one can stand in the hatch opening.
Aesthetics are like wine. While knowing good wine is the best way to appreciate good wine, it also means dissatisfaction with what others would call a nice tasting wine. Same with boat shapes. Most people (look around most harbors) are not connesiours of the fine line. But you may not notice this either, if you are one of them.
Should you defer to the practiced artistic eye of the designer or would it be better to stay happily oblivious to knowledge that can only bring you grief or ecstasy every time you look around?
Either way, though I would personally prefer to see a bit more beauty out there.

Alan

[Boston]

I have also considered a stern cabin for my planned coaster
more of a pilot house actually
not sure I like the look
but I like the idea of staying out of the rain
Im planning on a summer or two in Ketchikan and I think it rains about 260 days a year there and some kind of bikini is going to have to do

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by Boston

Im planning on a summer or two in Ketchikan and I think it rains about 260 days a year there and some kind of bikini is going to have to do

Bikini, or did you mean Bimini? (I suppose either works....)

I did some rough sketches a while back of a 2-person cruiser about this size, with the cabin occuping the aft 10 or so feet and the cockpit ahead of it. That was a powerboat- no mast. But I think it is possible- although not necessarily easy or comfortable- to cram a cabin in the stern. It doesn't work if you look at it from a traditional standing-headroom perspective, but if you look at things from a tent-camping viewpoint you can fit a fair bit in without standing headroom. As has already been mentioned, though, the problem is that the cockpit then ends up being a very wet place to be when bashing into any kind of seas....

[Boston]

eh bikini for fun
but ya
was thinkin about covering the cockpit with one but had some concerns
but those things cant last in a squall
and if you did get hit by a wave I would think its done for
now your getting hit by a wave and a bimini
so I started looking at designing a short pilot house and what that did to the design
ended up a midgets pilot house designed in carbon fibre to keep it light
and for the pilot to be seated so you could see over it from what is left of the cockpit
it also extended over the companion way hatch slide
the hole arrangement left the cockpit were it was and only changed the wheel location

end up you have a nice seat with a view
handy access to a cup of coffee
sheets and hauls are all still right were they are
got a duck a little longer on the way out the hatch but hey
should keep my dry

[Claus Riepe]

Guys,
I am returning to this because there came a novel idea, two actually.

With the aesthetics of a stern cabin on a very small boat (20 ft.) admittedly being difficult, up came the idea to make this stern cabin a temporary i.e. removable one. A kind of convertible boat with a stern cabin hardtop for the odd weekend expedition.
That was the first idea.

But then came another:
If you have such a removable hardtop cabin roof, hey, why not design it so that if taken off it can be flipped around and be used as a tender to row ashore in??

Probably a bit far fetched that one, but I think there is good thinking in this.

BTW I actually knew a guy in France who had a cabin roof for an open boat which could be flipped around to become part of the open cockpit.

Any comments?

[gonzo]

The problem is that when you go onshore, the living area is open to the weather and thieves. Does the crew that stay onboard get wet with the rain?

[marshmat]

I would question whether a 20' boat really has much of a need to carry a dinghy. Even a tiny one will be hard to fit- and as Gonzo points out, using your hardtop as a dinghy leaves the boat vulnerable when you're away. If I had to put a dinghy on such a small boat, it'd be either an inflatable or a folding/nesting hard-body.

For dual-use enclosed/open space, simple canvas (Sunbrella) enclosures are pretty hard to beat.

[gonzo]

I think the hull has to be designed with an aft cabin in mind. It should be rather beamy at the stern to be useful.

[Doug Lord]

This is a 20' motorsailer I designed and built in the early 80's. I liked the Fisher motorsailers and tried to scale that look down. Has a v berth forward and a double berth(made out of settee). Has inside and outside steering and a center cockpit. It was fun sailing w/o having to look thru a cabin and nice to be able to go inside in some conditions.