<split> coaming comment / off-topic split from Pearson Ensign thread

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

It appears >145>> the deck on my Pearson Ensign is a resurgence of the hostility which was sparked by this post >18>> the deck on my Pearson Ensign a couple months back.

I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Some people naturally have a bit of sarcasm in the way they talk; others carefully craft statements to be hurtful and pretend they don’t, and I don’t want to mistake someone’s intentions if they were innocent. Thus, I do greatly appreciate when the post feedback / reputation system is used responsibly because it helps when members are ‘right on the line’ to have at least some numerical basis and to see if 10 or 20 other members have found a specific member’s posts rude, offensive, or dangerous.

It is a fine line between a critical comment meant to be a "fact check"/helpful and one that is intentionally rude/hurtful; but I absolutely agree that the hounding of specific members from thread to thread, or making negative comments on whatever work a specific member posts only for the sake of poking at them, is quite disruptive and hurtful and needs to stop.

If the same point can be made without rudeness towards another member, please take some care not to be unnecessarily rude or hurtful as it hurts the forum and the point gets lost.

And please, consider this a warning.

Let’s keep the discussion constructive, factual without further jabs, and respect other forum members.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Boat Design Net Moderator

It appears >145>> the deck on my Pearson Ensign is a resurgence of the hostility which was sparked by this post >18>> the deck on my Pearson Ensign a couple months back..

Please clarify. In your view Post 18 is not acceptable?

A member here has a boat that needs a deck. Another member gave them some bad advice. A suggestion was made to the person who asked the question that they should look into it a bit more before blindly following that advice. No name calling, no rudeness, no swearing, no stalking, no sarcasm, no hostility.

So what you are saying is if someone posts a suggestion that is off by a factor of 2 no one should say anything, since the person who made the suggestion might have their feelings hurt?


Please re-write Post 18 for us in the way you think would not hurt the feelings of the person who gave the wrong advice.

[alan white]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Please clarify. In your view Post 18 is not acceptable?

A member here has a boat that needs a deck. Another member gave them some bad advice. A suggestion was made to the person who asked the question that they should look into it a bit more before blindly following that advice. No name calling, no rudeness, no swearing, no stalking, no sarcasm, no hostility.

So what you are saying is if someone posts a suggestion that is off by a factor of 2 no one should say anything, since the person who made the suggestion might have their feelings hurt?


Please re-write Post 18 for us in the way you think would not hurt the feelings of the person who gave the wrong advice.

You are referring to my response, no doubt, where I suggested 1/2" plywood for the fore deck on an Ensign. Immediately after thinner plywood was suggested (by you, Paul, wherein you were extremely rude), I reviewed what I'd written and in spite of your rudeness I corrected my error and admitted that my better advice would be to suggest 3/8" plywood. I still see 3/8" plywood as the right choice due to the poor quality of off-the-shelf box store 1/4" plywood (sure, marine 1/4" or 6mm would be adequate but practicality suggested to me that 3/8" AC or B fir would be far cheaper than marine 1/4" (especially if shipped) and perfectly adequate though perhaps 5 lbs heavier on a 3000 lb boat).
I do tend to overbuild a bit myself and that is because I use available materials and I like bullet-proof construction as do many builders here.
Regarding your attempt to paint yourself as innocent of personal attacks, I suggest you look at your reputation points. I would guess that had you been less negative in your comments, you might have a reputation point score of more than what I myself had after a mere two weeks on the forum.
So your attempt to defend your behavior tp Jeff should be seen for what it is; a waste of time. Instead you might acknowledge the warning without too much lawyering and move on, either changing your attitude or leaving the forum.
Personally, I would rather you stayed because you do have some intelligent things to say. Of course, I never want to hear you dragging negativity into a productive thread again, no matter who you are attacking.

[PAR]

Alan, let it go. I'd forgotten about that portion of this thread and it's really the only way to handle the likes of Paul B. Clearly the moderators don't read every thread, nor keep a tab on the repeating offenders. Paul B's reputation will eventually end up in negative territory and then the moderators will be forced to do something. Every single regular contributor to this forum knows what to expect from you, me and him. He's had "issue" with everyone here, he's an "equal opportunity abuser" and will eventually eliminate himself with his approach to forum participation. Unfortunately, a lot of threads will die and many members will be pissed or become disenchanted, while he "baits up" for his next victim. This is the part I'd like to avoid, as I know at least two well respected former members that will not return with Paul B on the loose. A hell of a price to pay in accommodation of this disrespectful ass.

Seasailor, contact me privately, as clearly Paul B's participation in this thread has defeated it's usefulness. Click on my name and send me an email. Yet another Paul B thread, comes to it's usual course. A sin too as this was a good thread I think.

[alan white]

Shoot--- I wouldn't let the thread suffer for this upset, I'd keep on going. The moderator has spoken; Paul B. has been warned unless I misread Jeff's comment.
Please continue without going private. I'll assume that closing down the thread is what Paul B. would want. Give the "system" a chance to work. If the problem recurs and this kind of negativity crops up here or on any other thread, we can expect Jeff to let the ax fall.
Of course, you may have other, more practical reasons for wanting to communicate privately as you often do. But I for one would like to continue following this project.

[PAR]

Paul B's membership here is over 7 years now and he's still here Alan. Nothing is going to change, as he always runs right up to the line then disappears for a month. He knows precisely how far he can go and I'll bet this is a trait he's employed all his life. You know as well as anyone, of his board contribution "style". All I see is a whole page without Seasailor posts, a common occurrence on Paul B threads, nor his last set of questions addressed, all the while, Paul B is digging up an image from a few pages back and doing what he always does, attempt to find flaws, usually out of context, in which to drive a wedge into. As far as I'm concerned Paul B's repeated actions, warrant being treated as wood rot and need to be physically removed.

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Please clarify. In your view Post 18 is not acceptable?

A member here has a boat that needs a deck. Another member gave them some bad advice. A suggestion was made to the person who asked the question that they should look into it a bit more before blindly following that advice. No name calling, no rudeness, no swearing, no stalking, no sarcasm, no hostility.

So what you are saying is if someone posts a suggestion that is off by a factor of 2 no one should say anything, since the person who made the suggestion might have their feelings hurt?


Please re-write Post 18 for us in the way you think would not hurt the feelings of the person who gave the wrong advice.

If everyone were an engineering robot and ran only on computer code without emotions or pride, your statements would not have sparked any problem. However, addressing post18, when you replied to a post addressed to another member, and directly after that member’s post, contradicting the advice you began with:

You need to do some reading and research and be careful not to follow what you read on the internet as gospel.

Now this is true - everyone knows you shouldn’t take any one source as gospel, whether it’s the internet as a whole, this forum, or even any one textbook; there will always be typos, errors, and omissions. I don’t know if you meant this to be read at face value only.

But it seems at least a few other members inferred that this was directed towards the member you were contradicting, which sparked the initial hostility. How would you feel if after you spent your time to offer advice, someone posted "be careful not to take [Paul B's or advice like this] as gospel."

If you had simply said something like:

I believe 1/2" plywood for the deck is gross overkill for your application, especially if you were to use framing on 12" centers.

that wouldn’t be aimed at another member or (even wrongly mis-) interpreted as an attack that drives the thread off topic.

Friction occurs sometimes, and a productive discussion resumed.

However, then, in the same thread and directed at the same member you had previously annoyed (intentionally or unintentionally), when they posted a photo of their boat, you crop their photo, and annotate it with a critical comment. You said

My initial comment was not directed to you nor intended to instruct you. Attempts at that have proven to be a waste of time.

But it seems if you’re going to take the time to crop a detail from a photo of someone else's boat and annotate it, it is directed towards them.

If the intention was not to stir up hostility again, but rather only to help the original poster with their question, a general statement like

When designing your coamings you should be sure you consider all your running rigging

would have made the same point without the additional comment you made

unlike the poor design shown earlier in this thread

I must admit when working with friends I’ve known for years, I often go towards the negative. It’s a kind of shorthand. If I’m short on time, I don’t bother with the positives or social skills and go right to picking any small problems or anything I don’t like about the project so it can be fixed. The difference is, we’ve known each other well enough for years and can read each others faces since we’re right there. Still, when I’m tired I have to be careful not to go too far.

When I was younger I used to love to walk the boat shows and docks and critique anything and everything. One night after dinner a friend and I were making some ‘observations’ about the paint job and some ‘irregular’ details… then in a moment I saw a head pop up… from the horrible look on the guy’s face I could tell he was the boatbuilder and had heard the whole 5 minutes of my comments and I wanted to sink into my shoes. I felt terrible that I probably ruined the guy’s night, and I realized I didn't get anything out of it except feeling bad for the next day. Ever since then I’ve learned to at least try my best to make points without being hurtful towards other people, especially if I don’t know them well enough to know I can smooth it over if a misunderstanding develops.

Now if someone is posting blatantly *unsafe* advice, I’m thankful when people step in to correct and protect others.

But in this case, I think these points could be made equally well without intentionally or even unintentionally being hurtful towards other members. Unless it's absolutely necessary, it's a problem if one, even good, observation is delivered such that it becomes part of a hounding or if it makes a number of others discouraged from continuing to share collectively greater amounts of advice or information following.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Boat Design Net Moderator

But it seems at least a few other members inferred that this was directed towards the member you were contradicting, which sparked the initial hostility.

How would you feel if after you spent your time to offer advice, someone posted "be careful not to take [Paul B's or advice like this] as gospel." .

There is the issue, isn't it. Just a few posts after Alan White initiated hostility he made a statement about what I wrote. The phrase he wrote, and you have paraphrased, was not written by me. If people like Alan White are offended by things they imagine there isn't a thing I can do about it.

There are members here who consistently say my opinion should not be considered. Actually some of them say and do a lot worse, seemingly with your approval. I laugh at them.

You should realize that even if I gave a material spec (which isn't always the best thing to do on an internet forum) Alan White would still have been hostile toward me for daring to question his "expertise".

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

by things they imagine there isn't a thing I can do about it.

Occasionally, everyone will find a comment of theirs is received not as they intended. But if it starts happening back to back, a little extra care is necessary. If a book has a typo, it doesn't make the whole book bad. If you make an important correction in the margin, people should be thankful. But if you insist on shredding every book that contains a typo, other people at your library are going to start to complain. The hounding has to stop.

Care has to be taken that corrections are received, at least most of the time, in a constructive instead of a hostile way or else people will start holding back from sharing their own experience or their projects. When situations like this develop, innocent people get drawn in and the overall discussion suffers. We're all here because it's an enjoyable place to share ideas, and so we all have to work a little bit to keep it that way.

[alan white]

Originally Posted by Paul B

There are members here who consistently say my opinion should not be considered. Actually some of them say and do a lot worse, seemingly with your approval. I laugh at them.

The whole world is against you. I'm beginning to understand how you view things. Your statement above sums up what's going on.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Boat Design Net Moderator

We're all here because it's an enjoyable place to share ideas, and so we all have to work a little bit to keep it that way.

When someone wants to be offended they will find a way to be offended, even by something that is not written or implied.

I think your goal is for people to visit this site and leave with more knowledge than when they arrived. When people abuse the right to post by giving advice that is factually incorrect it detracts from the value of this place.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by alan white

The whole world is against you. I'm beginning to understand how you view things. Your statement above sums up what's going on.

Once again you read something into a post that is not written or implied. Seems to be an ongoing issue with you.

There is some good news. You are becoming famous. This morning in my inbox there were two forwarded emails. Seems someone enjoyed your photo and comments so much that they have captured them and e-mailed them to others in the sailing community. There are some pretty impressive distribution lists in the strings.

After the initial "WTF" responses people realized it wasn't a joke and there are some amusing comments. There was one suggestion of a YouTube version. You have an army of new admirers. All this in just the first day!

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think your goal is for people to visit this site and leave with more knowledge than when they arrived

I do thank you for posting information which did add to the discussion – for example your actual observation on the required thickness.
However your second reply illustrates the problem in my view:

Originally Posted by Paul B

Once again you read something into a post that is not written or implied. Seems to be an ongoing issue with you.

There is some good news. You are becoming famous. This morning in my inbox there were two forwarded emails. Seems someone enjoyed your photo and comments so much that they have captured them and e-mailed them to others in the sailing community. There are some pretty impressive distribution lists in the strings.

After the initial "WTF" responses people realized it wasn't a joke and there are some amusing comments. There was one suggestion of a YouTube version. You have an army of new admirers. All this in just the first day!

Your same points could have be made with care to include no jab at another member and then all this hostility wouldn’t be created. A delight in ridiculing or flogging anyone who posts anything that isn’t perfect seems counterproductive to the sharing of projects and ideas.

Contradictions are fine – if we all had exactly the same values, requirements, or ideas, things would be uninteresting with little need for discussion.

Constructive Corrections are appreciated – everyone makes mistakes sometimes, especially likely if providing free advice, and I hope everyone here, no matter how experienced or inexperienced, will always learn new things.

But if corrections are delivered in such a manner that great hostility develops every time, or if threads turn into hounding that kills the original discussion, the overall building of knowledge and the community starts to suffer as less people will feel inclined to share their experience, or project, or opinion.

What I ask of everyone is to just take a bit of care always to deliver counterpoints or corrections constructively whenever possibly, not destructively. Everyone's help is needed to keep this a pleasant and productive place for everyone.