Speed Sailing Gets A Shot of Sanity

[eponodyne]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

I stay with my opinion which is, kiting is not boating. This is, by the way, a boat design forum.

I have a new opinion: You don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. Or your English skills suck, one or the other.

What about using a kite as motive force on a dinghy? Why isn't that boating? What about the Tornado that flew a stack of Flexifoils and went faster than anyone had gone up to that point?

If your point is "boarding isn't boating," then I agree, although stand-up paddle surfing does split the hair awfully finely. But don't point to the rig and say it isn't sailing because it most definitely, demonstrably and provably is.

[Meanz Beanz]

Originally Posted by water addict

Just don't wipe-out!
50 knots on the pavement? that would hurt.

It don't tickle on the water by the way!

[Meanz Beanz]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

You just wrote that my Guru is Doug, and you know that you meant that to be offensive.

Guru envy, its common in men with small guru's...

[ancient kayaker]

To MB: that's pretty good! not sure who is the intended victim, but thanks for a desperately needed chuckle on this sad thread.

Eponodyne: oops, I did say kiting is not boating, it was unintentional and I hereby withdraw it. I partially agree with you that boarding was not boating, but my opinion is not yet finalised. You're probably right when you say in your inimitable manner that I don't know what I am talking about, but I am trying to learn, so make a little space for us tyros, huh?

To all wind-over-water enthusiasts of whatever persuasion:

In post #20 I put forward a clearly controversial suggestion hoping that it would spark renewed debate in a moribund thread after six months of inactivity. Unfortunately it sparked a lot of invective which I sincerely regret. If I gave offense I sincerely regret that also. I seem to have trodden on some toes that I did not know were there. Perhaps like sleeping dogs, sleeping threads should be left alone.

[Kiteship]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Eponodyne: oops, I did say kiting is not boating, it was unintentional and I hereby withdraw it. I partially agree with you that boarding was not boating, but my opinion is not yet finalised. You're probably right when you say in your inimitable manner that I don't know what I am talking about, but I am trying to learn, so make a little space for us tyros, huh?

To all wind-over-water enthusiasts of whatever persuasion:

In post #20 I put forward a clearly controversial suggestion hoping that it would spark renewed debate in a moribund thread after six months of inactivity. Unfortunately it sparked a lot of invective which I sincerely regret. If I gave offense I sincerely regret that also. I seem to have trodden on some toes that I did not know were there.

First, welcome to the dark side Doug. Everyone ends up here, sooner or later. ;-) To others, sorry for the following long-windedness. I do so love to hear myself talk

Perhaps like sleeping dogs, sleeping threads should be left alone.

No, I don't think so. My ox has been gored, and I must have my say. ;-)

AK, I took some time last evening to look up a number of your posts on other threads; I feel better able to understand your relationships with Doug, Chris and others. You really are a bit of a curmudgeon and a luddite, aren't you! (I'm just pullin' yer leg; anyone riding under the login name "Ancient Kayaker" is already wearing both badges on his sleeve, eh?) Your opinions are your own, of course, and you have as much right to 'em as anyone here does (Doug, are you paying attention? Sorry, Chris, etc; Doug and I are old friends (I hope!); I feel fairly immune in needling him--though should point out I'll probably feel the need to defend him if Chris gets back on his high horse. (--No, please don't take offense, Chris; I agree that Doug's arguments are sometimes tedious. I speak of his actions, though, not his personality. "Can't we all just get along?" )

Thank you, AK, for two, no three things; first, for decrying calumnity in this thread (cool word; new/old one for me!), second for retracting the "kiting is not sailing" generalization--I've been putting kites on *floating* boats for more than 30 years, have a close and personal prejudice for considering myself a "sailor." And most especially for the claim--though yet to be demonstrated--that you still have an open mind. Let's test this last shall we?:

Dave: I did not use the word “sailing” in my post, I used the phrase wind-powered craft. I did not define the word sailing, but if I did, it would be “the art or science of progressing under sail“ which is the simplest possible definition. Lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony"), or Occam’s razor if you prefer.

True, though tautological. I apologize if you thought I was trying to catch you out, am picking at nits or splitting semantic hairs. My point was--and remains--that speedsailing is an existing genre, with existing rules. You are welcome to argue the rules of golf, or basketball or auto racing, but there's little to be gained by it; the participants, rules makers, overseers and the fans are comfortable with the status quo, and are willing to work under it. The logic of such arguments may be perfect, yet remain irrelevant. Similarly, when new technology comes to light; someone introduces a more malleable mashie or a nubbier niblick, there already exists a procedure for vetting same, and either embracing or rejecting it. So it is with speedsailing; I was offering you the reason certain rules exist, I was not seeking to defend the logic behind them. I shall now proceed to do so

I wrote “some wind-driven devices must be excluded because the manner in which they operate gives them a permanent insuperable advantage.” Here are some examples of permanent insuperable advantages:

1. A board that has to be launched at a run can be lighter than a boat that has to float.

Let's take these one at a time; how do you feel about windsurf boards, and their 20-year string of world records? Speed boards have been unable to support their riders at rest since the mid- 1980s. There was *precisely* this same argument--that non-floating boards weren't boats--20 years ago, all over the WSSRC, ISAF and even the AYRS. It was resolved in favor of the "sinkers," and has created specific precedent for "non-floating" boards since that time.

Anecdotally, the "it's not a boat because it doesn't float/doesn't have enough freeboard/ doesn't have enough accommodations/is built funny/looks funny/is not a wholesome design" arguments have been promulgated for each and every new boat-type, since time immemorial. It was applied to all racing yachts, to many dinghy classes (think Sunfish, Laser, even International canoe); to multihulls, to windsurfers when they were each new; only latest to kiteboards.

I love some of the other reasons put against kite sailing, too. There's a strong contingent amongst "conventional" sailors that kite sailing "ain't real" sailing due to the distance between kite and keel; "They're sailing in completely different weather systems!" goes the argument. They completely ignore the fact that the distance between Mirabella's masthead and keel is more than twice the length of your typical kite boat's strings, and any respectable square-rigger's CofE of her upper tops'ls, royals and skys'ls were closer to 3 times as far from her keel as a kiter's.

2. A kite can support most of the weight of board and boarder for the entire course.

So can a windsurfer rig. So can any inclined sail rig, including SailRocket, which certainly did so, spectacularly and on camera--as can Hydroptere--whose mast can be canted to windward, yielding a great deal of vertical lift. So, we'll need a careful--and fair--definition of "most of the weight" and under what specific weather conditions this might--or might not--be allowed to happen. Or we'll need to accept the fact that lifting rigs have been included as "sailboats" for many decades, and persists today (Orma 60s, G-Cats, Hydroptere, etc, etc, all make use of rig lift to un-weight their hulls.) If it's any consolation to you, several papers have been written demonstrating that the degradation in aerodynamic L/D due to using the rig to un-weight the hull outweighs the decrease in hydrodynamic L/D in doing so--in other words a net loss in speed potential. Also, fwiw, both windsurfers and kiteboards "feel" this in their boards; both strongly prefer near-vertical rigs for fastest speed.

3. A flat board skimming over a thin film of water uses it only as a lubricant.

I agree; thus am in full agreement regarding minimum water depth requirements. (this minimum--the one I support--requires depth to be more than half of a planing board's width; the depth where bottom effects actually become interfering--demonstrably so, to a knowledgeable physist in the field. The current ruling by the WSSRC is slightly mis-worded; could result in a boat like Hydroptere being required to sail in water more than half her overall beam; ie: 20-25' deep. This would invalidate many of her existing runs, which, IMO, isn't fair.

FWIW, another anecdote, the official WSSRC observer in Namibia in September struck off nearly 1/4 of all runs posted--including more than one then-world record--due to too shallow water during runs. They know what they are doing, are lending a steady hand. Also FWIW, Windsurf boards can be altered--very slightly--so sail in the same depth of water kiteboards currently sail in, yet are not. Ask yourself why? As a designer, I believe the kite boards will do better in slightly deeper water (half a meter) with deeper skegs, but that's just me.

4. A land or ice sailer does not encounter water resistance and has no leeway.

Can't see how this has any bearing on the conversation at hand, but for the record, it is neither strictly nor "spiritually" true. Both landsailors, through tire scrubbing, and ice sailors, through blade chatter, do incur a bit of leeway. More to the point, both experience significantly non-infinite L/D due to said leeway--added to to simple friction--at their "bottom" ends. A landsailor has a L/D of around 10-12:1; an ice sailor about 20:1 (as against a well-built displacement hull + daggerboard of perhaps 6:1. Thus, the "no leeway" argument is not the physical attribute which separates water sailing from land or ice sailing

Let’s by all means let’s exclude #4 by defining sailing as “wind over liquid water” for as long as we can get away with it, as we don’t want to see those damn ice/land sailers hogging the big prize for ever.

We've "gotten away with it" for 5000 years, I'm comfortable we will continue to do so. I explained why we do so in an earlier post. Look, it's fine to say, with perfect logic, that a heavier golf ball or bigger club should be allowed, but it simply will not be.

Where the bar is set is arbitrary, as I hope I have made clear. Pick any one, but don't ecpect to convince others of it's validity using logic.

Very much so. It IS arbitrary, and you have said so enough times to make your position clear. The fact is, all of civilization is arbitrary, and much of it is also both illogical and "unfair." Thus, in my humble opinion, such arguments are, prima facie, not relevant. Until and unless you offer an argument such as "according to these precedents, or because of these physical inconsistencies, or due to a falsehood in this existing rule, kites aren't sails or boards aren't hulls..." I cannot give your thoughts much credence, beyond agreeing that they are--even if internally logical--just wishful thinking.

Cheers,

KiteShip

[ancient kayaker]

I really enjoyed your post KS, thanks. As far how I feel about windsurf boards and indeed kiters, I admire the technology, the concept and the achievements of guys that operate them. Without a doubt they are sailing craft of a kind, despite some of the smart-ass cracks I may make from time to time. It sounds like I am not alone in having a problem thinking of them as boats, and we must agree to disagree on that.

If it comes to that, I had the same problem with Sailrocket after she slipped the surly bonds of earth and briefly took to the air, perhaps her true element, for a brief moment, but dammit what a sight when she was at full bore! Honesty forces me to note that many a fast power boat has done precisely the same thing, but at least they didn't have wings. If Sailrocket had only had a stabiliser, who knows how far she might have flown, but I digress ...

I did not know the history of the boarder/boat discussion at WSSRC, ISAF and AYRS. That is obviously the sore toe that I tripped over.

Back to just going fast for the hell of it: what do you think of the idea for a landsailor mounted on a rail? It would eliminate the energy loss due to tire scrubbing or blade jitter, though it would have to be done some place where the wind direction can be sufficiently relied on to justify laying a rail. One rail should do if the outrigger can be stabilised by a surface effect foil. On second thoughts better forget it: this IS the boat forum.

[HJS]

One of my old ideas back in 1969
Never got the fortune to realize it!

js

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Kiteship

... Doug and I are old friends (I hope!); I feel fairly immune in needling him--though should point out I'll probably feel the need to defend him if Chris gets back on his high horse. (--No, please don't take offense, Chris; ...)

High horse...hmmmmm, I find that rather fair as a take from time to time, so nope, no offense taken, Dave... I suppose this is long overdue, but I do wish to thank you for the reference to the proper breeder many years ago. ;-)

[Kiteship]

Originally Posted by HJS

One of my old ideas back in 1969
Never got the fortune to realize it!

js

See the Amick Flying Boat, US patents #3987982, #3899146, and also Bernard Smith's book "Sailoons and Fliptackers" (available at the AIAA store) and also see here: http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/o...ftframeset.htm (click on both "Full size" and also on "Models."

Lots of us had this great idea; a few have been/are coming to fruition. I wish you had (could still?) built yours as a model.

Kiteship

[messabout]

I got in late on this flap. Controversy, if kept civil, is entertaining sometimes. Wandering around the internet, there is a description and pix of a crazy Brit. He has an iceboat with which he wishes to break the world sailing speed record. He aspires to 125MPH. He is currently messing around some lake in Montana waiting for the right conditions. His iceboat looks like something from science fiction. Hard sail, aero downforce on the fuselage, etc... Hope he does not kill himself.

Messabout, see this for a picture. The Ultimate Ice Boat? Everybody might be interested in the Macquarie Innovation thread under "multihulls"- 2.8 something times the windspeed....Macquarie Innovation Takes Class D Record: 48.14 knots

[ancient kayaker]

Kiteship: many thanks for the Flip/Swing-tacker links which are of particular interest to me as I am planning to do just that and am looking for data.

[chabrenas]

Not Hydroptere-she can sail any direction any other sailboat can.

... including doing a forward somersault. It was really a tribute to today's materials technology that she was still in one piece.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by kengrome

Dispacement boats are actually slower in shallow water than in deep water.

Right, but kitesurf board is not a displacement boat. Planing hulls are known to have reduced drag (and therefore go faster) in shallow waters. And it was known even before this research was commissionaed to Wolfson Unit.