Speed Sailing Gets A Shot of Sanity

50 cm is pretty shallow, so who cares?
If you got to just skimming waterdepths, you could not generate any lateral resitance so you could only go straight downwind. Max speed would be some fraction of true wind speed.

The debate seems kinda pointless.

 

Excellent notion. The course should ensure the craft may be required to sail with the wind from any point and be long enough to demand a sensible measure of durability, but no handicaps or rating.

Doug: I agree that Hydroptere (foil-riding trimaran) would be a good contender for such a race. I don't agree that the debate is pointless, this debate is about what sailing is supposed to be about, moving under sail from place to place over natural water.

 

There will always be an unlimited category, speed for the sake of speed. That's exciting, and will trickle down into improvements for more common uses, just takes longer. Combustion engine boats and cars saw similar controversy when 3 point hydroplane hulls were developed and when jet powered vehicles challenged wheel and prop driven records.

Ultimate and class restricted speed records each have their place, and dominance of one technology in speed doesn't mean development of others stops. Diesel power for racing has reemerged, for example, in offshore powerboats, land speed records, and sports car racing. Dominance of ultimate sail speed by multihulls hasn't slowed development of monohulls, either.

Heck, there's even some guys racing foil kayaks. That's fer sure proving that it "takes all kinds".

 

Sounds like fun ... Hm... must take another look at my sailing kayak ...

 

A lot of good points have been made in this thread.

What kind of craft is more likely to establish the all-time no-holds barred record for a wind-powered craft or vehicle? It's not going to be a boat and that's that.

It is much more likely to be a land sailer or ice sailer. Or maybe a rail sailer inside a supersonic wind tunnel!

The point I am making is, creating a record category for the fastest "boat" immediately defines a limited class, dependent on what is and is not acceptable as a "boat". It has already ceased to be a truly open competition. There has to be a definition of a "boat" for the purposes of fair competition and some wind-driven devices must be excluded because the manner in which they operate gives them a permanent insuperable advantage.

Why not define a boat as a vessel capable of floating in water unaided while stationary and supporting the crew anywhere in the entire course including the acceleration portion for a minimum and reasonable period of time. If the boat or the crew has to touch the bottom to do this, it is not a boat; no external aid or temporary supports allowed. Floating is defined in the Archimedean sense of displacing it's own weight of water.

That is a definition of a useful vessel in my opinion, and should promote the development of useful ideas which is the true purpose of competition. It eliminates flat boards skimming over a thin layer of water, tube boats running along a half-drain, any board that cannot remain stable with crew on board when stationary. If it then turns out that a kite rig is the fastest, so be it.

 

"Sailing" is defined as wind over liquid water. Sure you could define it as you wish, but that's the way it is currently defined. Other similar sports are "land sailing" and "ice sailing." They are simply defined as different. There's a good reason; sailing on liquid water involves two fluids, and the raucous interface between them. Designing and sailing fast on or near this interface is a different (much greater, IMO), than is sailing fast on a fluid/solid interface. Regardlesss of opinions, it is an entirely different engineering concept.

Yes, and no. If you want to split hairs, sure, you're right. OTOH, sailing at high speed--on liquid water--has been a strong concern of mankind--thus engineers--for at least 5 millenia. bragging about "mine is faster than yours" goes back at least that far (likely much farther, knowing how men think!)

Speedsailing, as a modern "sport," came out of just such bar bets. We no longer compete to bring in the first load of fish, tea or other sail-carried commodity, so these days it's just yachts--but the passion, sense of history and silly willingness to spend *way* too much money persists.

The reason it's not done this way is again fairly simple; it's clearly an artificial construct; you have the end product in mind before you write the rules. Speedsailing isn't about being useful or about "protecting" existing boats--or even whole classes of boats. It is truly unlimited--within the chosen--and traditional, I might add--definition of "sailing."

But the point is not to develop anything. The point is to sail fast. Period. IMO, this is what keeps the sport amateur; it took an unhealthy turn, again in my view, when windsurfer manufacturers became so heavily involved in the 1980's. They were seeking bragging rights, but in fact did lots of development which was emminently "practical" in other parts of windsurfing Nearly ruined the sport, IMO!

As with most sports, "simple" rules have become more and more complicated over time. The minimum water depth requirements are a case in point; it's clear enough (to both rules makers and most participants) that too-shallow water reduces drag "artificially." How much is "too shallow?" This has changed, twice, in the past year alone. It might change again.

Lumping land sailors into liquid water records just doesn't make sense--to the actual participants in the sport.

The "accelerate from rest" argument is similar; sounds good to "boat" sailors; sounds horribly unfair to boarders. Which is "right?" WEll, votes were taken, way back in the day, and boards were approved. Hard toundo history, at this late date. Dropping off hulls was also considered, decades ago. This one was voted down as "unfair," again for a host of 2-side-arguable reasons. Today it's simply precedence.

Cheers,

Dave

 

""Sailing" is defined as wind over liquid water". So I decided to look it up. This definition is the same as my Merriam-Webster dictionary and is from answers.com:
SAILING: The skill required to operate and navigate a vessel; navigation.
The sport of operating or riding in a sailboat.
Departure or time of departure from a port.
===================================
And therein lies the crux of the problem: is a board that only supports its crew with dynamic lift a "vessel" or a "sailboat"?
---
Vessel-a craft,especially one larger than a rowboat,designed to navigate on water(Merriam-Webster)
--
Sailboat-a small boat propelled partly or wholly by sail.(M-W)
--
boat-a relatively small,usually open craft of a size that might be carried on a ship.(M-W)
====================
I'll be frank: I looked for these definitions to once and for all prove Dave wrong BUT I'm afraid I've proved myself wrong!! No where in the definitions above is there any mention of buoyancy or the difference between that and dynamic lift.
----
A few weeks ago Dave and I exchanged e-mails on this subject particularly: is "kiting" sailing? My position was that a kite was not a sail. A few days ago I had the great pleasure of watching two kite guys up close and watched them
SAIL upwind off the beach. That makes me wrong twice!!!
OK, Dave I publically admit that I was wrong! Thanks for the push....
++++++++++++++++
But I still have a problem: I just can't bring myself to put a sailing
kite board in the same category for the sailing speed record as Hydroptere!
Something is wrong with this picture. I'm torn between the awesome achievement that a kiteboard at 60 knots is and the awesome achievement represented by a 60' 5 ton boat with 10 people on board incl. a small diesel and a head doing 60 knots is. The definition of "is"?! I just can't equalize these in my head even though I accept that a kite sails and is "sailing" at 60 knots plus.

 

Incredible, as well as totally amusing in their scope, the above comments are.

It's not just Dave to whom you owe a resounding apology for your sometimes abusive diatribes over the last several years on this very topic. The numbers of those so due go well into the hundreds.

It's perfectly fine to establish a "special" place in your interests about speed sailing; A place where you put l'Hydroptere and your sense of what it is, as well as what it might be. To do so at the expense of what others are also doing within their spheres of activity is the problem.

Proclamations of, "they are not really sailing", for months and years, when it is oh-so-simple to just get out of the house and go watch the kiters do their thing, do not make for an open-minded person.

Suggestion: Go take a lesson in kiteboarding, spend a couple of days actually doing the sport. My bet is that you come away from the experience with a strongly connected idea of what the guys and gals must be doing when they hit the traps in Namibia.

Doug, you've perhaps given yourself a larger window through which you can participate in our world and all its wonder. Hopefully, at the same time, you have left behind that very skinny sniper's slit, which served as your point of view.

I've told you before that you have a heap of interesting things to offer. I can only wish you well and encourage you to have more of these "awareness moments".

 

I TOLD YOU SO.

All of ya.

Years ago.

 

Well, that brought this thread back to life with a vengeance after a few months of blessed silence! Now if we can just keep the discussion going without insult or calumny...

Doug: dictionaries merely define current word usage and don’t give technically accurate descriptions such as you are seeking.

Dave: I did not use the word “sailing” in my post, I used the phrase wind-powered craft. I did not define the word sailing, but if I did, it would be “the art or science of progressing under sail“ which is the simplest possible definition. Lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony"), or Occam’s razor if you prefer.

I wrote “some wind-driven devices must be excluded because the manner in which they operate gives them a permanent insuperable advantage.” Here are some examples of permanent insuperable advantages:

1. A board that has to be launched at a run can be lighter than a boat that has to float.
2. A kite can support most of the weight of board and boarder for the entire course.
3. A flat board skimming over a thin film of water uses it only as a lubricant.
4. A land or ice sailer does not encounter water resistance and has no leeway.

... and we can add stuff about foils, planing etc., etc. But let me address these few ...

It’s known that some conventional boaters would like to exclude kite-boards by reason of #1 & #2. The WSSR committee excludes #3 by defining minimum water depth.

Let’s by all means let’s exclude #4 by defining sailing as “wind over liquid water” for as long as we can get away with it, as we don’t want to see those damn ice/land sailers hogging the big prize for ever.

Where the bar is set is arbitrary, as I hope I have made clear. Pick any one, but don't ecpect to convince others of it's validity using logic. Unfortunately, the bottom line is, if kiting is sailing then so is land/ice sailing, unless you wish to split hairs.

I stay with my opinion which is, kiting is not boating. This is, by the way, a boat design forum.

 

Simply devastated, I am.

I've discovered that there are even more sniper slits for viewing the planet and its wonders.

The process of embracing lifting foils while excluding craft propelled by an instrument as simple as a kite...

Clearly, one needs to be on the technological bandwagon with both feet, if one wishes to be regarded with credibility. And here, I was operating under the apparently foolish notion that skill and simplicity had a legitimate claim in the future of our sport.

Absolutely amazing, it is.

 

Ok esteemed sages, perhaps-colleagues and retards
(-you know who and which you are!)

Just thought I would drop in to congratulate myself for having pointing out the salient factoids in this thread,
mos' nearly 'bout a year ago, right here on ye olde forum:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/50kts-500m-21115.html

Old hat, for the dinosaurs to ruminate over today.
Do please forgive my indulgence.

And BTW welcome back DL.
I think your fans were jonesin'

 

You have it wrong; I'm won't exclude kites, provided you don't exclude land/ice sailers. Fair's fair, and some of them actually have sails, something that cannot be said for a kiteboard.

Thanks for the news flash BWD. Here's an old one from 1999:

March 15, 1999 - Ivanpah Dry Lake , Primm, NV
Yesterday Bob Schumacher (pilot) and Bob Dill (designer/pilot) achieved a new world record in landsailing hitting 108.8 miles per hour (175.5 kph) in 25-35 mph winds.

 

So AK,

Perhaps you could define what it is that makes a sail? And, while you're at it, please tell us how said sail works in order to provide drive to said craft?

Now, with sail definition in hand, apply your suggested description to the workings of a modern traction kite, as used by the guys who hold the world record. You do know how kites work, do you not? These are not your garden variety, newspaper and spruce sticks affair with a nice tail hanging out the butt end, that you ran across the park with as a kid. There's a lot of stuff going on here and it would do you well to discover the potential.

You just heard your Guru, Doug, finally cop to beingless than open-minded about the workings of a kiteboarder's business. Yet, here you are, still stirring the fudge, as if that is going to somehow make the fastest sailing speed on record, all go away.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Doug... get a proper lesson on kiteboarding, spend a couple of days at the water's edge learning how to make them work and... with that big cheese eating grin on your face at the end of day two, sit down and write us a report on what you discovered.

What was it that nailed your, "it's not sailing" argument? The flying across your local lake at what felt like dangerous speeds? The ease of rigging and use, along with the absolutely affordable cash outlay for a whole rig? The babes that came streaming out of the cottages to ask what you were doing at your age with such an outrageously performance oriented sailing expression?

Really, go do it and see if you still have that position you just suggested. You, the guy who wants to attach lifting foils to a kayak.

 

Got me. Guilty as charged. Actually I did try a kite but it would not fly when I tried to launch it from my boat, only if I got it flying from the shore and then leapt into the boat. Somehow that did not feel like sailing, it felt like flying a kite.

Chris, please allow others to have a different point of view. I don't get upset when people want to promote kites, although I am offended when they take shots at me for expressing the opinion that boards (not kites, boards) are not real boats. You just wrote that my Guru is Doug, and you know that you meant that to be offensive. I was not offended as I enjoy and learn from Doug's writings, yours too, but you're not in an educational mood today. I am not Doug's running dog and I am not going to be yours either.

Doug was prepared to admit his failings and I respect that. Your turn, I think.