Some Newby Questions

My apologies, in advance, to the members of this board if my questions are too amateurish to be considered a contribution, and for the length of my post. I've used the search for these forums, as well as others, on top of extensive googling and book research and still have questions, some quite basic, the answers which elude me.

The questions are below and some, while seemingly trivial to you, are beyond my searching ability. Others were thrown in for entertainment value Since these all directly relate to the sailboat I hope to acquire in the future, I have placed them here even though some may be more suited to the general design or materials forum. It seemed unmanageable to break it up into multiple threads in multiple forums.

I am looking in the mid to long-term(5-10 years) to purchase a catamaran for world cruising (30 to 30) with no, current, interest in racing or straying outside of those latitudes in my boat. My sailing experience is extremely limited, growing up in the Midwest will tend to have that effect. My current intentions are to pick a law school near the east coast and use time between semesters (outside clerkships) to add to my sailing skills. I have 3 semesters remaining to finish my BA before this and hope to attend a sailing school next summer. Picking up ratings and having some registered experience should help me get some crewing time while in law school. Hopefully the law I choose to practice will be something which has some worldwide application. Now on to the questions!

1. I have read, in more than one thread, about the study which showed a 40' beam catamaran could not be capsized in the wave tank by the largest wave (51' breaker) that the tank could subject the model to. Did this take into account the likely wind gusts found at the peak of such a wave and the conditions likely to cause it? The very shape of a catamaran's cabin looks quite like it would produce a wing effect in strong winds. While the test, I believe, used a beam sea, would the wind effect under the raised central cabin have any notable effect, stern-to/bow-to/reaching or beating, on the design pitchpoling or capsizing? Or am I just being too paranoid?

2. A number of the designs I have seen have very large windows, sometimes doors, running down the sides or stern deck. Are these really capable of taking a pounding by a beam breaker or a sea which poops the back deck? They certainly, in many cases, do not appear to be very seaworthy designs. For a related question, why do stanchions seem so under built, in both height and robustness, on many of the catamarans I see? Do not people put netting on them anymore either? My hope is also that as prices fall, I will be able to afford a boat with a wavebreaker. Increased buoyancy up front, longer (should be) attach point for the forestay should also let me carry sail with either equal square footage and a lower center of pressure or simply more sail. Given my nature, I am far more likely to go with the lower center of pressure Are there any drawbacks to this feature?

3. The following link is for a 58' Catana 582.

Yachtworld Cat

There are a few items that jumped out to me from this design that scream "Bad Idea." The boom looks, were ever to break loose, as if it would wreck the dodger (and hard or soft it appears to have a wing/frame? at the rear) simply in what I would generally think of as its 90 degree state. Should the preventer fail, it would shear the dagger boards would it not? (I assume that is what the tall white triangular shape just aft of the mast on the starboard hull is, a retractable daggerboard) Since I have not seen pictures of many with their boards up, this may simply be a fact of life for cats with boards. Lastly, don't cats have backstays? There appears to be a line to the rear of the boom, but no backstay?

I could be dead wrong, or this could be simply a bad example or a limited design. Please take my questions as one's offered to gain answers from an ignorant state and not a "pick apart" design X.

4. I understand the best tactics for catamarans in heavy seas are to run. Are the rudders large enough to handle a heavy following sea while running?

5. I expect the brushless DC motor will gain in popularity over time, as it seems to be doing today with more manufacturers offering the option, and for the prices to fall accordingly. I do have a couple of questions about this system which have nothing to do with performance. The market and maturity of the technology will decide whether it succeeds or fails, not any opinion of mine. Can one drive this directly from a Genset if your batteries are damaged or not charging fast enough to keep up with your use? I intend not to make mistakes regarding bilge pumps, in selection, installation, maintenance, etc. The problem I see is that the most powerful are often harnessed straight to the engines. I don't really see a way to do that with these motors. The shaft turns when the motor turns and I do not see a way of harnessing the motors for a powerful bilge pump without turning the shafts. I did find one, from New Zealand if I remember correctly, which attaches directly to the shaft and is always turning if the shaft is turning. If there's no water in the bilge all it does it pump air. It looked quite simple in design and very unlikely to clog with a solid bronze impeller. I do wonder what kind of efficiency penalty one would pay with these always turning when the shafts turn though. Is there something I am missing here or has this simply not been addressed yet? I do intend to have numerous electric bilge pumps, but the sheer power of those which attach to a diesel engine are too much for me to ignore.


6. I've read just about every relevant article I can find from places like Practical Sailor, the forums here, and pages like YachtSurvey.com. I am pretty well set on wanting solid GRP below the waterline. Shuttleworth's designs have also intrigued me a great deal. Other than added weight of a solid GRP hull, is there any other drawback to this? I cannot imagine going with a cored hull after all I have read and seen. Especially after those pictures of a 43' Hatteras motor-yacht with a solid hull going through 2 12" pylons and beating the hell out of a concrete dock while emerging virtually unscathed. My question here, obviously one which would be moot should someone develop the prefect core material, is what would could cause me to change my tune on this? I have a tendency to over-engineer, personally and in thought, anything which my butt depends on Is there any problem with mixing materials (fiber and carbon) to add strength as Shuttleworth's designs do in certain areas? Is Vacuum Infusion the way of the future with its reduction in resin-to-fiber ratios and removal of human interference in the process? It would seem to be an excellent manufacturing method for mass production.

7. Many of the sailboats I have been on (actually on 5 I think) did not have any form of texture in their topside paint. This strikes me as a very silly oversight. The hulls I walked on would be slicker n' snot wet. Is this a manufacturer option, something considered unworthy of its cost to apply or what?

8. Are the rigging and sails on a catamaran designed with any form of structured failure in mind? What I mean by this is you want the sail to rip away before it capsizes the boat. You want the rigging/lines to break before it tears out an attach point, cleat, or winch. Is this part of a design, too hard to implement or....? It would seem to me to be difficult, and as long as one learns their boat and its limitations for wind strength/stability, it shouldn't be a problem. Too bad the number of capsized catamaran pictures and stories around make it feel otherwise.

9. The last questions are probably silly and I am just lumping them together here. You will probably find them humorous. With all the head injuries racers incur, why do they not wear simply helmets like a bicyclist? Why does an electric windlass cost more than a corvette engine? Why cannot one air-entrain(sp?) epoxy for a core material the way concrete is for some building materials? What is it with the blue and white striped cushions I see everywhere?! Ugly as sin The same goes for this weird aquatic green paint I see on numerous hulls! Someone alert the fashion police or get a boat version of that TV show where they spend 1000$ and give it a makeover before selling

I have lumped in many caveats about my inexperience to avoid the arguments I have seen in other threads. I am not attempting to be a troll, if any of the above is so construed it is accidental, and a result of my ignorance. My positions are subject to change as my knowledge and experience grows. The only one which is probably set in stone is the catamaran design, for livability on long-term cruises.

 

In 5 to 10 years catamarans will have changed again. Hopefully in 5 to 10 years you also will have too.

Get your degree. Get some experience in life, and take some risks.

Hope you never become a lawyer if you stay in your present state of mind.

.... bicyle helments for sailing? Hell kids should not even wear them when biking. One falls. One learns. Then one comprehends reality. In other words be directly responsible for your actions.

Were are living in a world over run by tourists with 99 flowers on their back.

 

Silenti - you have some homework to do
Carbon fibre is NOT a mixture of carbon and fibre, as your point 6 would seem to indicate as your understanding - it is fibres made of carbon.
Point 8 - Yes, the "industry standard" for years has been to design the chainplates to take 4/3 the breaking load of the rigging. Since the rigging itself is usually designed with a factor of safety of 2 or more, this is plenty. The sail should NOT "rip away" before the boat capsizes. That is like saying the engine should disintegrate before the tires lose their grip. Any sail that weak would be useless in the emergency it is most needed in.
Where do you find data about racers suffering head injuries? I'm curious.
Aerated epoxy would be just a brittle as you can get. Not good in shear, or compression, the two modes in which a core material has to excell. Speaking of which, it is widely touted the the YachtSurvey.com site has an axe to grind about cored hulls. They do themselves a great dis-service by adopting this attitude, since there are a great many cored hulls that have sustained little damage in nasty situations.
As far as paint is concerned, please talk to Madison Ave, as these are the colours they seem to think folks want. Maybe they're right?

Nero - dude - he's a lawyer-in-training, be gentle...

Steve

 

Wow. Not the kind of responses I expected from a site I believed to be populated with engineers. It seems some of what I stated wasn't very clear, so let me reply to some of this.

nero:

In 5 to 10 years catamarans will have changed again. Hopefully in 5 to 10 years you also will have too.
Since the boat I buy shall probably be used and not new, the designs I would be shopping for are those which are available now or available shortly.


Get your degree. Get some experience in life, and take some risks.

Hope you never become a lawyer if you stay in your present state of mind.

I am 31, having returned to school after much of my early life being spent doing various forms of computer networking jobs. Personally, I hate the "nanny state". I rather enjoy riding motorcycles, smoke, have a small collection of firearms (I am in the process of assembling an AR_15 currently)and have taken more than a few risks in my life. Some of the current condition of my body would attest to this between the many fractures and some of the other "damage" which I won't go into. My choice of law stems from some fascination with the wide variety of subjects it deals with. There is far too much to go into here. Suffice it to say I am not "inexperienced" in life.

.... bicyle helments for sailing? Hell kids should not even wear them when biking. One falls. One learns. Then one comprehends reality. In other words be directly responsible for your actions.

Were are living in a world over run by tourists with 99 flowers on their back.

As I said, I rather despise the nanny state and am very much into the personal responsibility/personal choice frame of mind. Always have been. The question you responded to was offered in a semi-silly fashion and only mentioned because it seems when racers do suffer injuries in bad weather it often stems from getting tossed about the cabin or getting hit with flying equipment on deck. Obvisouly this does not relate to all races, but in some of the longer trans-ocean races where the weather often sucks. (Sydney-Hobart, Newport-Bermuda, Fastnet, etc) I was not in any way advocating a rule or law to enforce this, it simply seemed like a prudent caution in certain conditions. I don't go riding without wearing a helmet so I related this to heavy weather sailing.


SailDesign Silenti:
- you have some homework to do Carbon fibre is NOT a mixture of carbon and fibre, as your point 6 would seem to indicate as your understanding - it is fibres made of carbon.

I understand this. My question, obviously not clearly stated, was in reference to mixing layers of carbon fibre and glass fibre to reinforce certain areas of a design. Shuttleworth seems to advocate using a mix of fibers to reinforce areas of the bows and the cabin roof/bulkhead where the mast interfaces. Others, like Kelsaw, don't like to mix materials. I just wondered if there was any delamination issue with mixing these materials.

Point 8 - Yes, the "industry standard" for years has been to design the chainplates to take 4/3 the breaking load of the rigging. Since the rigging itself is usually designed with a factor of safety of 2 or more, this is plenty. The sail should NOT "rip away" before the boat capsizes. That is like saying the engine should disintegrate before the tires lose their grip. Any sail that weak would be useless in the emergency it is most needed in.

Understood. Thank you. The question stemmed from a designer (I believe he currently works out of Thailand) who mentioned that the ancient catamaran designs couldn't be over canvassed because the sails would rip apart first. Thus meaning it was damned near impossible to capsize them.

Where do you find data about racers suffering head injuries? I'm curious.

These are mentioned in a variety of books about races that went bad and heavy weather sailing in general. As I replied above, I was NOT in any way advocating a rule or law which would enforce this. Simply that when the weather turned foul it seemed there was a fair number of head gashes and concussions from flying equipment or bodies crashing around. This was stricly limited to poor conditions but it struck me as a way to prevent some disabling crew injuries and would be a safety issue little different from wearing a harness.

Aerated epoxy would be just a brittle as you can get. Not good in shear, or compression, the two modes in which a core material has to excell. Speaking of which, it is widely touted the the YachtSurvey.com site has an axe to grind about cored hulls. They do themselves a great dis-service by adopting this attitude, since there are a great many cored hulls that have sustained little damage in nasty situations.

Fair enough. It simply appears that cored hulls, mostly from that particular website which I found prior to frequenting these forums and found mentioned here as a source of good information, were borrowing trouble. Both in terms of safety and resale value being more likely to develop problems. I believe osmosis, delamination and "hydraulic erosion" were all mentioned.

As far as paint is concerned, please talk to Madison Ave, as these are the colours they seem to think folks want. Maybe they're right?

It was thrown in the silly section for a reason. Personal aesthetics and I just don't like stripes

Nero - dude - he's a lawyer-in-training, be gentle...

Yeah, be gentle. I'm stuck in the Midwest for another 2 years.

 

Silenti: Increased buoyancy up front, longer (should be) attach point for the forestay should also let me carry sail with either equal square footage and a lower center of pressure or simply more sail. Given my nature, I am far more likely to go with the lower center of pressure. Are there any drawbacks to this feature?

A higher aspect ratio is more efficient in light air. For cruising, I can see being worried about a high center of effort, but a long-distance cruiser usually spends plenty of time without much wind.

 

Regarding windows and doors: for a bluewater vessel you want SMALL plexiglass (or just really thick, strong and well sealed) windows. Doors? Me, I'd want watertight, submarine hatch style doors, but I'm kinda obsessive like that. A good, well sealed door made of fiberglass or metal will be fine.

 

Oh, by the way, I'd learn how to sail before anything. Take some classes, get a small hobie cat or try to have someone help you design a catamaran.

 

Silenti,

Have a look at the last few months of Latitude 38 back-issues, they're available online, in one there is a Max Ebb (Paul Kamen) article about catamaran stability, I think you'll find it interesting.

Now, when it comes to the safety of catamarans, I personally think the concerns tend to get overblown and a bit lop-sided, I don't mean to sound cavalier about it, but in comparison, few monohull sailors seem overly troubled by the several tons of keel waiting for any opportunity to suck their boats into Davy Jones locker. Sure, you can build a super-ultra-heavy-duty-bomb-proof cat with a small sailplan that will never tip over, but then you'll most likely be so slow that you're a sitting duck for anything coming down the barrel. So, what I'm saying is, avoid obsessing over one or two factors, but rather, take the entire equation into account. A nicely balanced design almost always turns out to be a better boat than the nutty-engineers' freaks you see out there sometimes. (And no, I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm the sole possessor of Objective Truth, these are just my opinions)

Those big windows and stuff, you'll have to talk to the stylist about that, but, you know, curb-appeal is important when you're trying to sell somethig for several hundred K or more, and it just can't be dark as a cave inside.

Stanchions and lifelines, might look weak, but it's the same stuff you see a dozen people or more hang all their weight from on racing boats.

That Catana boom, look at it the other way, the dodger protects your noggin from getting bonked by a broken boom flailing around.

Are the rudders big enough? Well, what I'd also ask, is the boat fast enough? (Apparent wind drops the faster you go downwind)

I really like the concept of one central gen-set and electric everything, I wouldn't get too crazy about redundancy though, it is a sailboat after all.

Cored construction, I don't see a problem with coring everything, as long as the builder knows how to do it right and doesn't take short-cuts, and of course, thru-hulls and other penetrations have to be done right. Do keep in mind that a heavier boat is also more heavily loaded, so you can easily end up chasing your own tail by adding weight were it's not needed.

Infusion and other tricks, not really a panacea, (I bristle a bit when people talk of reducing the human factor as much as possible, I do have my pride, and you're not really reducing it anyway, just shifting it elsewhere) most of my experience repairing infused laminates comes from the J/105, wich was a real bumper-boat class for a while. What we discovered was that the skin to core bond seemed to fail much more extensively compared to the early boats that weren't infused, or the J/35, wich was built the same way, and, they're usually several hundred pounds heavier.

Windlass vs Corvette engine, that's mostly due to production volume, the basic GM small-block has been in production since 1955, and as such, probably amortized by now. (yeah, yeah, I know about the gen 3 re-design)

You'll have to forgive my impudence, but I just can't resist taking a tiny little snipe at you, putting excess materials and weight in a structure is not "over-engineering", That's under-engineering.

I doubt my aimless ramblings will be of any help to you, but good luck anyway,

Yoke.

 

Hello Silenti, welcome to our world.

Design analysis is about the most difficult task you could ask a person to perform. This is a function of the compromises made by the designer when working out the drawings and the desires of a prospective owner.

I think Ted Brewer put it best when he said yacht design is a bunch of "Difficult Design Decisions", because each element of a particular design is some sort of trade of with the other elements of the design.

Everyone has an idea of their perfect yacht and this is an evolution of their tastes, experiences, fears and abilities, which is continuously revised as you gain more helm time.

When I was a young man, I wouldn't own or build a sea boat for myself that had more then a small foot well for a cockpit. I'd been overtaken by a breaking sea more than once and had the cockpit fill, the boat wallow around until the thing drained out and would have none of it again. Now I'm in my early 50's and I like big, fat, deep, shaded cockpits, to lounge around in. I'm now also willing to screw up the sailing abilities of a nice yacht with a doghouse or pilot house, so I can have an sheltered steering station. This is a direct result of the continuous revision process, we all do to the model of our perfect yacht, in our minds eye.

You'll find that your model will change considerably as you gain experience, fear, ability and respect. In fact, if you'd like a good laugh, make a list of all the needs, requirements, desires and attributes you think your perfect yacht should have. This should be a perfect world list, where no sea can ever overwhelm the boat and your sailing skills can out think mother nature. You'll find you need and desire quite a lot and that most are in direct conflict with other aspects of the yacht (DDD's again) Now, try to refine the list with real world conditions spanking the goofier stuff. Okay, you've tossed the ginger bread, but how about the basic design requirements, such as stability, heel angle tolerance, level of performance, level of comfort, etc? Try to access your most basic requirements in this yacht (you're likely into the color coded maker thing by now) How much conflict and how much of each can you live without in order to have most of the others? Beginning to be a pain in the *** isn't it? In truth, you do this every time you think of a yacht, constantly upgrading that model, hell, you may even want a mono hull, but just don't know it yet. Though your experiences and requirement for stability, capsize safety, ability to carry stores for long passage making, etc., you may be forced to think about a mono. Save this list(s) and hold on to it until you are very close to buying that yacht, then pull it out and have a good laugh. You'll find it still has your basic needs covered, but you've revised it so much that all else will seem, well, inexperienced fears, of course you'll have passed the bar then and will find a way to justify those items on the list as founded.

In the end, there's little that we can do to help you understand, other then telling you to get on as many boats of every configuration as you can. This is the fastest way to get your model changed, refined and the relief of some basic concerns you may have about design decisions made in a particular design. You'd be surprised how much time you can spend on a boat, if you really desire it. Begging is good, bartering your kid's labor for a weekend romp in a friend's boat works and there are a number of methods you can use to find a ride. Crewing for a local racer will gain you loads of boat time and you'll pickup sail handling skills like crazy, which will serve you well when you have to claw off a rocky lee shore in some far away port or just show off for the wife and kids when another boat is within sight.

In light of your desire for a cat, I'll offer some observations. Cats need to be built light in order to have the performance potential realized. Cruising cats typically can't carry much in way of stores (supplies) before they drop their performance advantage over a mono hull. This light construction is also hell to pay when the conditions get ugly. It's not that you can't survive, but control issues and breaking stuff is common. This would be true of any lightly built yacht, but a cat has to be light, so it is at a disadvantage from the outset. When a designer has to strongly consider a door on the under side of a yacht (just in case) there should be some thought on the part of a prospective owner that these things do get knocked over. Personally I have a real problem with any sea boat that needs a trap door. If it can't right itself, then what are you doing farther from shore then you can swim back to, but that's me. Lots of cats, tri's and non-self righting monos have made many safe and uneventfully passages in the worst of conditions. New materials and designs have gone a long way to helping the issues on multi hull craft.

 

Selenti,

my appologies.

Par (again) had an excellent post.

Still hope you get hooked in to cruising and never become a lawyer.

I am in central Illinois till Sept. Not liking it even tho I am building my cat.

 

Hi Silenti

don't be discouraged if the answers are a bit rough here sometimes

It's just because you come up with a giant post that is so full of first ideas that it is almost impossible to answer them. A lot of it simply shows that there is very little practical experience on your side, and that you formulate quite harsh critical questions concerning what is really a very big and rather complex machine that was build like that for a reason.

To illustrate my point, I will try simply take your questions from just one single paragraph:

To begin with, a little bit of google would have taken you straight to www.catana.com. They have also build more than one of them, and sold them, so it can't be all wrong really

So, for the boom:
On a boat like this, a boom does not come loose any more than a wing on an airplane. Meaning it DOES happen occasionally but you are not supposed to loose any sleep over it. If it does, it's not "loose" either, because it will happen with the sails up, and even if the gooseneck breaks (the fitting that attaches the boom to the mast) it will most likely still be held by the sheet, the sail, the topping lift, the lazy jacks and so on, at least long enough that you can secure it. This boom also does not have or need a "90 degree state" because the sail is not cut like that. It also can not hit the daggerboard, because that is forward of - and covered by - the shroud.

These things are obvious for people that have sailing experience, and they do not "scream bad idea...", and are really non-issues that do not need long defensive or explantory posts. This is the sort of question that you would typically ask the skipper of the boat your going to learn sailing on, during the first couple of days of your first trip, and that would become evident when you see the boat and all it's gear in action.

As PAR already explained, there is nothing better than go out there and get your bottom wet and build up your own criteria for what your boat should be like.

My advice for people thinking about building or buying a boat without experience is to take 10 % of the planned budget and invest it in skippered charter trips on as many different types of boat as possible, including those that you already think you know you do not want.. try mono and multi, try light and heavy, long and fin keel... go off season in nasty weather and talk with the skippers. With the remaining 90% you will then for sure choose a boat 5 times as good for you - and still save money.

Actually, with 10 % of a 58' cat you could probably sail around the world without ever buying a boat in the first place

 

I read most of these responses on the 5th and have been considering how to reply to them. I feel I should simply point out a few items about myself. I am somewhat claustrophobic, not terribly, but enough that monohulls, especially the sleeper quarters, but the seating and available headroom (I'm 6'2"+) made me decidedly uncomfortable. Not something i wish for longterm certainly. In addition, i have a drive to understand. Not to the point of being an engineer, but certainly a high laymans level. I've built my own computers for years, took apart my toys as a child (and No, i did not straighten the slinky, it was plastic - Ghsotbusters humor for anyone interested), spent about 3 months researching theater equipment before building my own home theater (I've now done 4 and remain happy with my decisions, as are those who have seen them or purchased them), the same for firearms, etc, etc. In part this is simple curiosity and in part I NEED to know how something works and why to trust it. I will be far happier with a design with which I understand the compromises and the theme's behind those decisions. Since I am stuck in the midwest with little to no chance of getting out sailing till next summer, I've simply chosen to learn what i can from books and the net.

I know I'm an idiot, that is one of the reasons i am here, to fix those gaps as best i can. One little point i have learned over the years is to go to the designers/programmers/etc. to get the most realistic information. I went to sites where people built their own AR-15's and modified existing firearms to learn. I frequent graphic programmers sites to learn about the new games consoles and what is really thought of them as opposed to "fanboi" sites. Thus my presence here. It was the best forum I had found for people who, from my point of view, would have the greatest knowledge.

On to the replies!

PAR:

Thanks for the welcome. I was very concerned i had seriously offended some people

The design compromises I can understand. It seems a different application of choosing nimble and quick to avoid problems or having the equivalent of a tank. Corvette vs. Hummer

I fully expect to have my ideas change over time. The focus on Cats at this point is what i do know of myself and what i dislike about the ride and interior space of a monohull. As a general rule anyway. Strangely enough, i had already been thinking of filling out a list of design, equipment, and luxury items i would wish for in boat, listed in order of importance, and seeing how they change over the next couple of years. I even considered posting them so you could all get a god chuckle out of them. I would probably forget to list something critical, like sails

I was hoping to learn some basic repair skills while sitting here in the midwest. Diesel engine and water pumps seemed like a particularly good idea from the logs i have read That way I may be able to trade them for time aboard cruising.

Luckily I do not really require, personally, a great deal of heavy personal effects. Give me my computer, my books (heavy I know, hopefully I can whittle down the collection by then) and my screen (the projector weighs all of 7 lbs) and I'm good. I desired a larger vessel (and I would think something around 60 would be the absolute maximum) more for the interior volume than weight carrying capacity. I don't have the expertise to really debate the monohull vs. multihull. I know the basic differences and my opinions may change, who knows.

yokebutt

Thanks for the lattitude38 tip. I've been reading every backlog since you cued me into it.

My desire in a design is to avoid, as much as possible, any truly bad weather and stay the hell out of harms way. The speed of a Cat seemed to be well suited to this. Thanks for the bits on the stanchions, once again it was a comment from reading about complaints by, probably long time, sailors about the designs of more modern vessels. (One in particular bemoaned the height for stanchions being dictated by whether or not it impeded the owners view while sitting instead of safety considerations.)
Protect the noggin, good idea
The rudder question came from a site (the same couple who designed Sundeer) and their new powerboat. The site specifically mentioned that the ability to run with the weather was most often a function of the rudder more than anything else. Bigger rudder=more control and the ability to run at higher speeds for longer times. Thus, stay the hell out of harms way or get into the least violent portions of any given storm.
I'm hoping, should Solomon Technologies take off, that their prices will fall and i can retrofit a system. It simply strikes me as elegant and, at least in some ways, less prone to failure.

Didn't mean to get under your skin with the vacuum infusion bit. My understanding was that, according to current thinking, the higher fiber to resin ratio, the stronger and lighter the hull. With Resin Infusion sitting right above prepreg and well above hand rolling when it comes to these ratios. It simply struck me, from watching videos of the process, that you could see the fiber and its saturation, and it was faster, used less epoxy, etc. If I'm wrong and have just bought into hype, then I'm wrong and have just bought into hype. Its one of the reasons I'm here. I was under the impression that a solid hull would be more able to sustain damage and not subject to delamination. Hell, if I'm wrong tell me so. I'm not stuck on any of this yet.

Ok, so windlass' cost more. So be it. just strikes me as a, relatively, simple device which has experienced few changes over the years, other than size, and should be considerably cheaper than what i have seen is all.

I used the term "over-eingineering" as I have seen it used. I suppose, overbuilt would be a better way to put it.


mackid068

That's the very problem. My situation is such that i can do nothing in person for almost another year. I cannot just walk down to the docks and offer to trade some cleaning for a ride or some knowledge. There really isn't any place here to do that, I'm in the middle of missouri. The local lake is a pond with small aluminum fishing boats on it.

Skippy

This is really a point I wouldn't be able to make any decision on for a long time yet. No personal experience and all that. It seems if a Cat capsizes, it most often is racing, or even if not racing, it's due to over-canvassing. Lower the center of pressure just seemed like a handy safety idea, one that I would probably forego for greater flexibility once i know what I am doing.

nero

No apologies necessary really. I used to want to be a civil rights attorney. The more i have seen of the courts, the manner in which they make their decisions and how the legislators make theirs, the less interest I had in this. Been quite disheartening. I really do hope to take up a life on/next to the sea.

yago

Ahh, but just because something has sold does not necessarily mean it is worth a damn. Gateway Computers comes to mind first

Boom falling off - likely as wing falling off. Gotcha. Definitely not something I have ever worried about. Probably spent too much time reading racing books and got a skewed view. Though there seem to be more than a few dismastings mentioned in Latitude. Didn't see the shroud in the picture. Makes perfect sense, just seemed such an odd looking design I was wondering if it was a result of a number of criticisms i had read about designers going for looks instead of seaworthiness. Or, since those kinds of decisions are made all the time, if they had swung the pendulum too far.

I hope to spend time on a great number of different boat types over the next few years if I can make myself useful. Hopefully that will negate the need to charter vessels Considering the costs of chartering, 10% would disappear faaast.

Maybe I should put together that list, at least it should be entertaining to everyone here

 

The old way of keeping a sailing cat upright when short handed was to cleat the main sheet to a cam cleat , that was mounted on a hinged bord , held down by a ski binding.

When the load got large enough the binding would release and the board would hinge up releasing the cam cleat holding the main sheet.

Fully battened mains will take this abuse and not instantly shred.

Capsizing and overloading are the biggest problems with cats , so why not a lead sled (monohull)?

Far easier to purchase and far less endangered with the usual cruising load.
A 35 ft offshore worthy boat can be found for under 100K US and may only need a new suit of sails after the ride.

Just the weight of real cruising ground takle with spares may burden most cats to unsafe overweight.

Since the 60's the song has been "Cats for Costal , Tris for Trans Ocean" in the multihull area. Leadsleds do both CHEAPER and frequently with less danger.

FAST FRED

 

The old way of keeping a sailing cat upright when short handed was to cleat the main sheet to a cam cleat , that was mounted on a hinged bord , held down by a ski binding. (Fast Fred)

That's something new!

But anyway, a monohull may be the best idea. Go for a full keel or at least a boat with a nice, heavy keel and heavy displacement, and you'll be fine.

 

FAST FRED

Now that setup is something I have never heard before. I don't see how weight should be such a serious issue if you are watching it. Ground Tackle (assuming 3 oversized anchors with the appropriate chain and line) shouldn't weigh more than around 300lbs total. I believe I remember reading that the carrying capacity of a mid size cat (one of shuttleworths designs I think) was around 7000lbs. I don't know what that figure must include though. Obviously I have a lot of work to do, but that's another good reason to start learning now. I thought much had changed since the 1960's with respect to these designs.

mackid068

I may well change my mind. All the courses seem to be taught on monohulls, at least the schools I have looked at do. They have courses in Cats, but they seem to be additional and not the regular courses (Basic Keelboat, etc) that one should take while learning up.


I'm not entirely set on a Cat, I simply expect that, at this point, that would be my ultimate decision with my, admittedly, rudimentary knowledge.




I should probably stop readings some of these sailing logs. There is one for a Cat "Bumfuzzle" where I started reading it and just had to shake my head and couldn't believe they were still alive. Apparently I wasn't the only one. Late in the log they mentioned getting emails from people begging them to learn something before they got killed. I have no intention of following in their footsteps. Bumfuzzle