smallest sailboat which has an inboard engine

[apex1]

Originally Posted by urisvan

hello,
i will try to sum it up:
first the choice of our little boat suitable for coastal cruising is important. i share the same opinion with PAR. Coastal cruising in aegean means waves up to 5 metres and winds up to 60 knots. Oh yes i can handle this with my windsurf equipment but it is a different story. i think the weight is important as the PAR said. The examples that are given shows similarity, FLICA, FOLKBOAT and PAR design. they are all long keel boats. I quess it is(being long keel) necessary to obtain the weight required, the space for the accomondation and inboard motor. but i have only one doubt about them: i did not sail one of them but i heard that these type of boats have bad pointing ability. So can they easily escape from a lee shore in strong winds??

second the length of the our smallest boat (that is suitable for offshore) that can carry an adequate inboard engine. as JotM said that it is a design problem, but a starting point in design is important. and PAR said that it should be at least 20 feet and 22 should be better. it is very logical.

cheers

I am pretty shure that all three can escape from a lee shore. The "Folkeboot" does not provide a proper space to accommodate a Diesel engine (out of race). I do´nt know about PAR´s design, he does´nt show a prop in his sketch, but believe she can. The Flica has a big, big advantage, often overlooked, she provides enough space for a large prop! A small, low power (10 hp), high torque engine connected to it will get you away from trouble.
Just my two cent (0,02 €)
Regards
Richard

[PAR]

The prop aperture isn't shown because it's available as an outboard in a well (not my first recommendation) or a straight shaft inboard. The aperture is in front of the rudder, so flow is better as is steering (very similar to Flicka's).

Flicka is a little bigger then RYD-14.11 and displaces slightly more. Her numbers are similar, so both will be comfortable in a rough slosh and self righting.

The Bermudian rig is better to windward as you would expect, but the gaffer is quite respectable and can claw off too. The hull has to have enough "power" to do this, as well as good appendages and rig. Lighter boats can get "slapped back" trying to climb away from a lee shore, even if they are fine windward machines in softer winds.

Things I look at are maximum stability, enough displacement to permit reasonable comfort, enough volume to allow reasonable stowage space and balanced sailing lines, so she will not have any nasty habits, particularly when you really don't need them (like clawing off a lee shore). This doesn't produce the fastest boat, but it does generate a real cruiser. A boat that has the room to stow your gear, spares and stores, the heft to bash her way through if it comes to that and one who's motion, will rock you to sleep instead of knock your dental fillings out. These are the hallmarks of a cruiser. Now, some disagree and that's fine, but if you can't stow what you want to bring along, get pounded to death going to weather in a stiff breeze, have to worry about sudden and unexpected broaches in certain conditions because of hull shape and appendage decisions and aren't particularly comfortable except at anchor, then you will not be doing much cruising.

For those that think it's fun to surf down waves in 30+ knots and 10' seas, go for it, but I've found most that want a cruiser, can live without the thrill rides, preferring to stand watch with a cup of coffee on the deck, without fear it'll spill. In a cruiser, you should be able to leave the helm, grab a fresh beer from the cooler and walk easily back to the helm, without concern you'll round up hard enough to toss the crew below on their butt.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by PAR

In a cruiser, you should be able to leave the helm, grab a fresh beer from the cooler and walk easily back to the helm, without concern you'll round up hard enough to toss the crew below on their butt.

And even worse ... to spill the beer!

So PAR, what´s your recommendation for the 14.11 ? Which engine do you think will fit?
Regards
Richard

[PAR]

The completed boat (double chine gaffer) has a Hatz 10 HP air cooled diesel, mated to a Japanese transmission, of which I can't remember the make. The whole assembly, engine, pump, trans, home made manifold, weighs less then 200 pounds and is a pretty clever arrangement, if you can tolerate the noise. Two more are under construction, one plans on using a well mounted outboard and the other is still debating how to approach the little inboard. Kubota has some nice, small diesels. Their Z482-E3B would be my choice. It's a 2 cylinder, 13.5 HP, 4 stroke, water cooled little puppy that weighs about 140 pounds all wet. It would be softer spoken, requires much less air volume through the compartment, but would be a fair bit heavier then an air cooled engine.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by PAR

The completed boat (double chine gaffer) has a Hatz 10 HP air cooled diesel, mated to a Japanese transmission, of which I can't remember the make. The whole assembly, engine, pump, trans, home made manifold, weighs less then 200 pounds and is a pretty clever arrangement, if you can tolerate the noise. Two more are under construction, one plans on using a well mounted outboard and the other is still debating how to approach the little inboard. Kubota has some nice, small diesels. Their Z482-E3B would be my choice. It's a 2 cylinder, 13.5 HP, 4 stroke, water cooled little puppy that weighs about 140 pounds all wet. It would be softer spoken, requires much less air volume through the compartment, but would be a fair bit heavier then an air cooled engine.

The "Hatz" has a good torque, is almost indestructable but pretty loud!
The little "Kubota" is a real good engine too, but if the boat is used to "sail" I would go for the aircooled Hatz! No through hull hassle, no impeller to service in a very tight and cramped space, no winterizing, and so on.
Regards
Richard

[alan white]

Hatz, a south African company, has smaller diesels as well, in the five h.p. range I think. A light 10 hp diesel is going to shake a small boat. A Flicka sized boat is just about right for 10 hp, but a typical displacement 20 footer (and under) would be happy with 5 hp or thereabouts.
The Katz's best feature is price. If you can martinize it (provide cooling air and exhaust jacketing) and get a transmission reasonably, the air cooling (if loud) does away with a whole lot of maintainence. There are certain kinds of insulation that will cut down on cabin noise, but the cooling ducts will be hard to make quiet.
Still, as little as a blue water cruiser motors, it's an economical way to go.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by alan white

Hatz, a south African company, has smaller diesels as well, in the five h.p. range I think. A light 10 hp diesel is going to shake a small boat. A Flicka sized boat is just about right for 10 hp, but a typical displacement 20 footer (and under) would be happy with 5 hp or thereabouts.
The Katz's best feature is price. If you can martinize it (provide cooling air and exhaust jacketing) and get a transmission reasonably, the air cooling (if loud) does away with a whole lot of maintainence. There are certain kinds of insulation that will cut down on cabin noise, but the cooling ducts will be hard to make quiet.
Still, as little as a blue water cruiser motors, it's an economical way to go.

Oh. oh ALAN...
Hatz is a German Factory established 1880!!! Not African!!! They have many branches abroad, even in Waukesha WI.
They produce 1 Cyl. engines from 3,5kw up to 11kw and 2-3-4 cyl. up to 60kw.
The most interesting engine is their "Supra Silentpack" 1 cyl. 13 hp for the intended use.
http://www.hatz.com/index.php?id=70
edit:
better this:http://www.hatz-diesel.de/index.php?id=70&L=1
Regards
Richard
if you go to Ruhstorf for a visit, stay at the "Antoniushof" Hotel, say regards from Richard, get the bridal suite for a single room rate.

[PAR]

I like the Hatz (German) little diesels. They don't spin way up, developing max torque at less then 2000 RPM, which is perfect for a fairly heavy small boat. I'm currently looking into a stainless steel, drive cable, that could be used as a coupling between shaft and transmission. This would eliminate the need for stiff mounts and the engine could be placed on soft doughnuts, which would dampen vibration and noise a good bit.

The flexible shaft is only good in low HP applications (maybe 20HP max), but just the ticket for mounting an off set engine and routing a drive cable around centerboard cases or other obstructions. Both Flicka and RYD-14.11 carry displacements that are typical of much larger craft, say around 23', instead of 20' and 18' (respectively). I did develop up a set of intake baffles for the air cooled engine which cut down on a lot of the noise, but it needs a lot more understanding about this dynamic then I have, to really make a huge noise reduction.

[JotM]

Just curious about the Hatz. Are you talking about the single cylinder here (1D41 or 1D42) or about the two cylinder (2W35)?

[apex1]

Originally Posted by PAR

I like the Hatz (German) little diesels.

Hahaha, thank you, let me be proud about our industry sometimes

The "Silentpack" seems to be a sort of sufficient solution, at least the spec. sheet shows nice figures.

To the cable issue I have no idea. But sounds clever. Anyway these little Hatz one cyl. puppies do´nt shake soo much that you´ll spill the beer!

Regards
Richard

[JotM]

Originally Posted by apex1

... Anyway these little Hatz one cyl. puppies do´nt shake soo much that you´ll spill the beer!

Whats makes you think PAR is talking single cylinder?

[PAR]

They have a number of single and twin cylinder engines under 20 HP. The engine installed is model 1B4OU2ES, which I think is superseded by 1D42.

Of course many changes had to be made. The tank was removed, a cold air pack installed, an exhaust manifold made, etc. None of this is especially difficult for a reasonably handy person. The bracketry was home made and welded, but the manifold was professionally welded.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by JotM

Whats makes you think PAR is talking single cylinder?

Knowledge JotM, knowledge, the two cyl. Hatz in the 10kw range are watercooled and PAR was talking about a 10hp!
Regards
Richard

[alan white]

Originally Posted by apex1

Oh. oh ALAN...
Hatz is a German Factory established 1880!!! Not African!!! They have many branches abroad, even in Waukesha WI.
They produce 1 Cyl. engines from 3,5kw up to 11kw and 2-3-4 cyl. up to 60kw.
The most interesting engine is their "Supra Silentpack" 1 cyl. 13 hp for the intended use.
http://www.hatz.com/index.php?id=70
edit:
better this:http://www.hatz-diesel.de/index.php?id=70&L=1
Regards
Richard
if you go to Ruhstorf for a visit, stay at the "Antoniushof" Hotel, say regards from Richard, get the bridal suite for a single room rate.

Thanks for the correction. I was mistaken!

[Tcubed]

The well designed full keel is quite likely the best format for still getting to windward when others can no longer.

The sheer surface area of lateral plane makes it tremendously effective at resisting leeway , even when speed can no longer be kept high.

Beware of the tremendous amount of misinformation on this topic nowadays.