Small and cheap voyager.

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by J.D.Hogg, Jun 1, 2006.

  1. LostCause
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    Location: West Coast, USA

    LostCause New Member

    You can pick up an old Cal boat.

    The Cal20 can be had for ~2000, but it needs to be modified to be seaworthy. They have been sailed from the west coast to Hawaii successfully.

    The Cal25 can be had for ~5000, but it also needs to be modified to be seaworthy. It doesn't have a self-bailing cockpit, and the opening over the lazarette is huge. It has been successfully sailed around the world, several times. The Martin family circumnavigated the world with three kids...www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin.html

    On a 20-25 foot boat, the voyage is going to be less than luxurious. Supposedly smaller boats (20-25ft) fair better in rough seas than medium sized boats (30-40ft) because they float like a cork, but that is just an opinion I heard somewhere. I hope you don't get seasick...:p

    Being a sailboat with a permanent keel, the draft might be a problem for canal voyaging.
     
  2. mattotoole
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    mattotoole Senior Member

    I'll put in another vote for the Cal 25, which are good boats and indeed available for under $5k. The necessary modifications should be easy and cheap enough. Also, enough of these boats were made that parts are widely available and cheap too, should you need a new mast, rudder, etc.

    I've sailed several Cals extensively (20, 25, 27, and 34). I always liked them. They move well in light air, but have no bad manners when the going gets tough. Some friends circumnavigated in a 34. Most of the older Lapworth Cals are basically larger or smaller versions of the same boat, and they perform similarly.

    I'm sure there are others, but the Cals are everywhere (at least in the US) and a known quantity.
     
  3. J.D.Hogg
    Joined: May 2006
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    Location: Richmond, Virginia

    J.D.Hogg Junior Member

    The more I understand the more questions I have. My mind has been wandering to proas and cats too, but... I'll leave that for another thread.

    One thing I've been keeping an eye out for, but have not seen, is a flush-deck and center cockpit design. Anybody know of one that is for cruising and has standing headroom. Can anything have a flush deck and standing headroom at shorter lengths?
     
  4. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Location: The Netherlands

    Milan Senior Member

    Flush deck with standing height doesn't work on the short boat. High hull has a lot of windage, and lot of area for waves to slam on. That makes for uncomfortable motion in the waves and poor windward ability. High hull sides means higher center of gravity = less stability = less sail caring power. That have to be compensated with a more ballast and \ or deeper draft hull so whole boat becomes heavier and slower. Flush deck beginns to work well on the boats of about 12 m, (that would be around 40ft), and longer. Smaller then that, there are few successful designs with a just raised deckhouses and not the whole deck as Yago 31 for example.http://www.yago-project.com/index.php?lang=en

    Center cockpit is not very good idea for a small boat, as cockpit will occupy the most valuable part of the boat and leave very little usable space, just in the ends of the boat. It makes sense with a big boats only.
     

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  5. J.D.Hogg
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    J.D.Hogg Junior Member

    MIlan; the render you posted, is that considered a flush deck?
     
  6. J.D.Hogg
    Joined: May 2006
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    J.D.Hogg Junior Member

    Another question. I was looking at the free plans for 'kavalier 800' and some mini transat designs,vagabond 23 and didi-mini.

    My questions are ; are these suitable for minimalist cruising? are they self righting? can you go below safely with a steering vane? What is this combination of wide beam, shallow draft and drop keel called?

    In other words, I know they are seaworthy but can they be sailed at a relaxed pace (sleeping below)?


    Speed, shoal draft and expedient beachability are appealing.
     
  7. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    You can find the plan for KAVALIER 800 in the directory of the forum

    Cheers

    WDH
     
  8. sharpii2
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Michigan, USA

    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Das (cheap) boot

    I have been working on a concept for years to accomplish the least expensive boat that can cross an ocean safely.

    The key to keeping costs down (for a new boat) is saving money where ever you can and being willing to spend extra money when you have to.

    My design, first off was to carry only one person. It also was supposed to be able to right itself from a 125 deg. knock down with no outside ballast. Getting rid of outside ballast proved expensive performance wise. In order be able to right itself with minimal inside ballast, about 800 lbs, it had to be narrow and relatively high sided. It also ended up pointed at both ends to simplify construction.

    The price for all this was an extremely limited working sail plan of only 141 sft for an SD of around 11. This is very low and, by changing from water to sand ballast, I might be able to increase it by about 20 sft.

    This boat does not have a normal yacht interior. Not even for a 20 footer.
    Instead, it has a long wide cabin sole which one sits on during the day and sleeps on during the night. Three snap together cushons serve as a mattress.

    There is about 4ft of headroom between the cabin sole and the plywood cabin top. The cabin house is only 3ft square.

    All around the lone sailor are lockers of every kind. They are cut into longitudal bulkheads on either side of the skipper. they contain, amongst other things, a fold out nav table on one side and a recessed galley on the other. Even the cabin sole has lift out pannels, underneeth which water is stored, on top of the ballast grate, in 2 liter bottles. These bottles, once consumed, are refilled with salt water. This is just an old trick to make the water stores double as ballast.

    This boat has no cockpit. It must be sailed from inside. Three strategically place hatches allow access to haylards, the steering vane, and other things outside the boat. On a boat this narrow (5ft), the side decks are considered far too treacherous to venture out on on a regular bases. Steering lines lead in from the rudder yoke all the way to the forward most hatch. I want to be able to steer this boat at all times.

    There will be a choice of two appendage systems. One will be a long keel which will extend only 6 to 8 inches below bottom, giving an all up draft of approximately 2.25 ft. The other will be a pair of leeboard like fins which I call 'clamp keels'. They will extend from the sheer clamp all the way to the hull's maximum draft. They will splay out at about 10 deg from the side and be fastened permeantly to the hull at the sheer clamp on top and a heavy hold off strut 2/3rds the way down to the waterline. They should be quite sturdy. The level draft with this system will be about 1.75 ft. The sailing draft , however, will be considerably more.

    The rudder will attach to the virtical stern post and a heavy duty skeg which will also extent down to the hull's maximum level draft. The rudder blade will extend just one inch shy of the botom of this skeg. On low tide, this boat should be able to stand up right. Its deep 'V' hull form should allow access to most of the underwater hull then except fore a 3 inch center strip which will be copper cladd for that reason.

    Propelling this boat will be either low aspect ratio ballanced lug or a gaff sail of similer proportions. The lack of decent staying angles effectively prohibits a working jib. The mast will have no stays, but may have a pair of shrouds to prevent excessive whipping, if that becomes a problem.

    The hull is designed to have no twist in any of the plywood pannels its made of. The deadrise stays constant and the sides are verical. The top veiw shape is that of two opposing archs, so there are no hard curves to rupture the exterior grage plywood its made of. The sides will be 3/8ths and the bottom will be twice that. I guestimate that the hull, ballast, and rig will weigh about 1400 to 1600 lbs. Loaded with stores, it will displace between 2500 and 2800 lbs.

    So, what do you think?

    Bob
     
  9. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    incredible frightening........... minimalist extreme? Kalvier800 will suit you..... unless you wanna try something smaller and rough ride?
     

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  10. Milan
    Joined: Apr 2005
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    Milan Senior Member

    Renderings are of the Yago 31, designed by the Gerd Mueller, that's his link in same post as renderings. That type of the hull is not considered flush deck as just small deck sections are raised, so raising of the center of gravity is less of the problem then with a flush deck.

    Milan
     
  11. lewisboats
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: Iowa

    lewisboats Obsessed Member

    I don't know about the other one, but Guppy (the first picture) is NOT a blue water buggy. This has smaller lakes and gunkholing in shallower water in mind. It could probably handle 100+ deg in a knockdown and self right but it is NO ocean crosser.

    Steve Lewis...Amateur Designer of said Guppy, dirt poor and never in a mood for a lawsuit.

    PS: At least mine looks vaguely nautical :rolleyes: :D :D .
     
  12. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    Thanks Lewis....... I did like your design...... the Guppy but thought it a bit alien....... like an escape pot from a submarine:D:D:D

    Nice work actually....... have tried it?

    WDH
     
  13. lewisboats
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    lewisboats Obsessed Member

    In the middle of building it now actually. The thought was to be able to single cruise for 3 to 5 days without having to set up a tent, with sitting headroom (in the middle, with the center hatch raised. It has enough room for a stove, sink and porta-potti or bucket with cedar shavings. It will draw only about 15" (swind keel up). To keep it on an even keel, poles are put down on either side to balance it.

    Steve
    PS: lets not hijack the thread (I added this later)
     

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  14. Wellydeckhand

    Wellydeckhand Previous Member

    Dont forget to post the finished work man.......... very neat design:):):)
     

  15. J.D.Hogg
    Joined: May 2006
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    Location: Richmond, Virginia

    J.D.Hogg Junior Member

    I've hijacked a few in my time, no worry.:D

    Welly, to be more precise, Alfred E. Neuman said: "What-me worry?".

     
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