Small blue water boat?

[Wavewacker]

Which kinda brings up another issue. To say that weather can be avoided by smaller boats I'd think twice about and I'm no experienced off shore type. I probably have more weather experience than most on the site having been through weather observation and sciences as an air traffic controller, which is more than what pilots get. Point is, weather can change and a small boat is probably not fast enough to get out of the way if you're 200+ miles out.

My thinking is that if all you can afford or acquire is a 20'er or that's what you have and you have to make a trip in that boat, is that you will suffer at some point. Also, I'd want a boat that was heavly built, strong, that seals up to stay dry, Which is what I see in Yrvind's Paradox on steriods (but shorter at 14/5'), something comprable. Might try to figure out how to have a hamock inside with lots of bungee cords to tie it off in several directions then strap yourself inside so you don't bash the cabin sides....

Just a thought, I'd just want to know that the boat could survive anything that could be dished out, the rest would be up to me.

Great thread....

[Wynand N]

I find it surprisingly that no one has mentioned the Tom Thumb 24 before designed by Grahaeme Shannon but for the last few years marketed and sold by Bruce Roberts....

This boat has a lot of beam, spacious and with the cabin top stretched a little forward (see pics below) have an opening hatch and also standing room in fwd cabin.
Below are a few pics of my TT24 I had built in 1990 and had the following modifications;
Stretched coach roof and Naca foil fin fitted in lieu of the full Archer type keel it is design with. Went like clappers for its size and really pointed high going to windward

[BATAAN]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

I find it surprisingly that no one has mentioned the Tom Thumb 24 before designed by Grahaeme Shannon but for the last few years marketed and sold by Bruce Roberts....

This boat has a lot of beam, spacious and with the cabin top stretched a little forward (see pics below) also standing room in fwd cabin.
Below are a few pics of my TT24 I had built in 1990 and had the following modifications;
Stretched coach roof and Naca foil fin fitted in lieu of the full Archer type keel it is design with. Went like clappers for its size and really pointed high going to windward

Nice boat!

[benjy1966]

Just to make it clear, I never said bad weather could be avoided entirely. I said that the worst of the weather can be avoided. Weather forecasting and communications have come on in leaps and bounds over the last few decades. Even a slow moving sailing boat can get out of the way of the worst of the weather.

The bottom line is that if you venture offshore in any yacht bad weather will find you eventually but what I am saying is that a well found boat (no matter what size), sensible heavy weather preparations, a positive attitude and the use of modern technology where possible will ensure you survive.

In 2005 I crossed the pond west east in a 24 foot boat. A year later I crossed it on a Swan 65. If you asked me which boat I would rather do this crossing in, I would say the 24 footer. I did not find the 65 footer any more comfortable at all, quite the contrary. You have so much further to fall in a big boat and much less stuff to grab hold of. Believe me, when it's crappy even a 65 footer gets thrown around!

When a gale hit 500 miles out in the smaller boat, we simply hove to and stayed battened in down below, wedged in to our bunks by lee-cloths. The motion was surprisingly comfortable despite the large breaking waves that constantly came aboard. It was unnerving at first but as confidence builds in the strength of your boat you soon realise that it's more of a waiting game. I'm talking of bad weather far offshore and away from dangers found near the land.

What I have learned over the years is that everyone has their own idea of what aspects of a boat design are important to them, eg: speed, comfort, size etc. The conclusion that I have come to is that for me comfort is the most important. Personally I am quite happy at sea and in no hurry to get there so comfort is more important to me than speed. In any case we still managed to average 100 miles a day despite being fairly unlucky with our weather on the crossing which as it turned out was a lot faster than many other boats doing the same crossing regardless of their size.

This is a fascinating subject and a great thread. Everyone who has posted has a valid and good point to make. But I would just like to end by saying that if you want to go blue water sailing it is not essential to have a big boat. Rough weather is tough in any boat. I do not agree that a smaller boat is necessarily more tiring than a larger one. Or at least that has not been my experience.

Maybe the big difference is that a small boat doesn't even bother to fight bad weather whereas a big one might keep slogging on. But if you are comfy, you can just stop and ride it out.

What is it they say, go small, go now. I couldn't agree more!

[gilberj]

We have made some progress over the last while in understanding what happens to a boat at sea. Begining with the '79 Fastnet race and continuing with the '98 Sydney Hobart Race, designers and investigaters have made systematic studies of the action of small vessels and come to some pretty clear conclusions.

Any person planning an offshore voyage in a small vessel would be well advised to assess their boat against some of the coefficients relating to seaworhiness, ie. Comfort Coefficient, Capsize Screening, and Angle of Vanishing Stability. These are not definative calculations, but certainly reasonable guides or indicators.

Some conclusions from analysis of these events:
1 Competance of the crew was often a deciding factor
2 Bigger is better
3 No particular boat style, age, construction or other technical factor showed any clear advantage or absolute resistance to capsizing when in a survival situation.

Stats show most small vessels manage to cross oceans safely. I'd consider a small vessel suitable given the odds. I'd prefer a small vessel with a reasonably comfortable motion, partly because a small boat is less adept at avoiding large weather systems. I'd expect to experience rough weather from time to time. In a really small boat I'd be very interested in roll-over survivability.

Seaworthiness requires.... water tight integrity, adequate stability, (both initial and range) and vessel mechanical fitness (ropes, rigging, shackles, pins ...everything). Then it is up to the crew.

[peterchech]

I have a sectional outrigger canoe. The main hull can be bolted together as a 16 footer, 20 footer or 24 footer with all else remaining the same. I don't cross oceans in it, but do sail it in relatively rough waters outside of Sandy Hook Bay in New Jersey. I have noticed that the difference between the three versions is NIGHT AND DAY. When put together as a 16 footer I get bounced around and feel like I'm in a sailing dinghy. I ship plenty of water too. The 24 footer is at the opposite end of the spectrum, and has the feel of a boat rather than a dinghy. If that can explain it... It ships hardly any water except in the worst conditions. Despite being only about 60 pounds heavier, the 24' version doesn't get bounced around anywhere near the amount that the 16' version does. And despite being only about 450 pounds, it has a very similar feel to my 4000 pound Hunter 25 monohull.

So, absolutely everything else about the boat remains identical besides the length of the main hull. Same beam, same outrigger, nearly the same weight even, and the longer waterline makes it much, much more seaworthy and even just comfortable. This experience tells me that more than displacement, waterline length, however achieved, is the simplest way to get a seaworthy boat. So I can sympathize with PAR and his comments that a small loa boat is just completely, even dangerously, uncomfortable in any sort of rough conditions.

I guess marina fees go up as the loa goes up, but if you can keep a boat on a mooring is there any reason NOT to build it longer? All the mods needed to make a small boat more seaworthy probably cost nearly as much as simply building longer, no? If kept narrower, the longer loa boat would be faster, more stable, be able to carry more sail, and may not even use more materials in its build. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

[Wynand N]

Originally Posted by peterchech

I guess marina fees go up as the loa goes up, but if you can keep a boat on a mooring is there any reason NOT to build it longer? All the mods needed to make a small boat more seaworthy probably cost nearly as much as simply building longer, no? If kept narrower, the longer loa boat would be faster, more stable, be able to carry more sail, and may not even use more materials in its build. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

Not that simple...
You are only correct that longer boats will be naturally be faster since the hull speed is rooted in the waterline. (displacement vessels - not planing hulls)
For the rest, sorry to disappoint you, its not that simple with to many variables influencing stability and here is something for you to ponder about weight (displacement) of floating vessels:

You have a piece of plate - 400mm x 800mm - in size. First, bend it in a tray (hull) of 300mm x 700mm x 50mm and volume is 10.5 liters.
Now take the same plate and bend in tray (hull) of 200mm x 600mm x 100mm and the volume is 12 liters.
Finally take the plate and bend into tray (hull) of 100mm x 500mm x 150mm and the volume is only 7.5 liters....

The displacement (weight) of all three trays (hulls) are exactly the same (same size plate used) but the volume of the hulls differs greatly. The last example - narrow long hull - have the least volume for its displacement and therefore sinks deeper to any given waterline compared to the two others.

Boats costs are directly influenced by its displacement - the heavier the boat, the more expensive it is.

[rayman]

here are a couple pics of a little one built for "Blondie Hasler" not many people have heard of it. "LONER" all 14'10". she went to New York eventually and may still be there somewhere.

[rayman]

And another j-rig for Bataan, "Kehaar" the daggie sails is after surviving a typhoon off the east coast of Japan This boat is a modification of a popular Aus design.