Single trapeze dinghy plan?

[Hans Friedel]

Hi Stephen

Yes but the fuller deck maks them a bit less wavepiercing. Also modern kayaks are a bit more symetrical.

But that german alu kayak looks mean :-)

Hans

[Andy]

I dont think David has wasted anyones time here - if anything he has highlighted that there is scope for researching designs and methods which offer 90% of the performance at 50% of the price. If david can give a figure for his budget, and assuming he is willing to race on handicap instead of one design, I'm sure people here can come up with some cheap and quick ideas...

I myself will sharpen my pencils (or sharpen my rhino...), put on my thinking cap and post something later this weekend.

Andy

[Steve Clark]

The opportunity to value engineer a little boat like this is pretty much a time/$ relationship until you get to a certain point.
I don't know how to avoid having to pay a sailmaker to build you a decent sail, or buying a spar that is light and stiff enough to trapeze from. Maybe the number was a bit high, but I sort of assumed when he said "RS 700" he meant outfitted like an RS 700, which has some pretty nice pieces.
SHC

[gggGuest]

Originally Posted by Steve Clark

I don't know how to avoid having to pay a sailmaker to build you a decent sail, or buying a spar that is light and stiff enough to trapeze from.

Steve's exactly right. A decent rig will cost a good bit of cash. Until you have the skills to build mast and cut sails that's going to be the way of it. I know of 1 (one) person who's done all of that successfully. As someone who is reasonably happy to build hulls but doesn't do mast and sails and foils I'd reckon that a boat is going to be roughly 20% mast, 20% sails, 20% foils, 20% fittings and 20% hull. So getting on for 80% oof your costs are much the same as buying off the shelf.

If you want something that will be, frankly, second rate to sail, then don't buy new bits. Find something like a club 420 with a written off hull and build a boat with the rest of the stuff. But the sail will be tired, half the fittings too, you'll still end up buying some string and fittings, and the tatty worn out stuff may frustrate you attached to your nice new hull...

I can tell you from experience you still end up buiying the good bits in pretty short order!

[Whitefeather]

A decent rig will cost a good bit of cash.

Based mainly upon the above truth, which is now quite apparent to me, I am pretty sure I will try the whole single-handed trapeze gig later and try something a little smaller and more within my budget (which, by the way, is around 1k-1.5k, at the max). Or more appropriately stated, within the same universe as my budget . Although I do greatly appreciate everybodys willingness to provide usefull advice. Thanks.

David

PS
Any recommendations for a good sharpie plan, 20'-25' in length?

[gggGuest]

Originally Posted by Whitefeather

I am pretty sure I will try the whole single-handed trapeze gig later and try something a little smaller and more within my budget (which, by the way, is around 1k-1.5k, at the max). Or more appropriately stated, within the same universe as my budget . Although I do greatly appreciate everybodys willingness to provide usefull advice. Thanks.
Any recommendations for a good sharpie plan, 20'-25' in length?

Well the trapeze isn't the expensive bit. Its a decent mast and sails that cost money. Foils cost too, but are more amenable to homebuilding. So you have the choice, if you want to economise, of either getting a second hand rig or else of building the style of rig where the standard is sufficiently low that you can build cheap and not be too dissatisfied. Unless you have a major enthusiasm for traditional style boats I'd ay get a second hand rig. That will at least go upwind.

So what you want to do is grab a rig first. Join a local sailing club and ,make enquiries or check ebay. What you want is a mainsail and a mast. Depending on what's about depends what sort of boat you build. I'd forget 20/25foot sharpies. You should build a boat about twelve feet long. They fit in the garage and use 1/4 of the materials. Less ply, less glue less everything.

If you get a secondhand Club420 or similar mast and mainsail, and then build a lightweight ply hull underneath - aim for about 110-120lbs - you would have a enjoyable little sailboat and have a good chance of hitting your budget.

[Andy]

Hi David,

Good sharpie plans can be had from Karl Stambough at Chesapeake marine Design, and if you want a sharpie then definitely buy Reuel Parkers "The Sharpie Book".

In response to the stuff above about rigs, I agree with Steve and GGGGuest that to get a good mast and sails you would need to spend some serious money. I think that in years gone by sailors were much more self sufficient when it came to these items. I still believe that an interested individual CAN produce these things himself, but you need to either have a working knowledge and experience of spars and sails or at least have access to some who has. I don't know what the situation is like over in the US, but here in the UK you do come across people who are very hands on about their dinghies. There are a large number of home built carbon spars in the Cherub fleet, and whilst less people are producing their own sails now than previously (which could be as much to do with the current mentality of working harder to pay someone else to do it as anything else), there is at least one boat in the fleet that was designed, built and kitted out (minus deck hardware) entirely by her owner. That boat has won a lot of races, and placed second at the Cherub Nationals a couple of years ago. Fred Imhoff also wrote (comparatively recently) that innovative sailors will make their own fittings to suit an intended purpose. Its certainly true that if you are working with Dacron cloth then a great way to learn about the subtlety of sail shape and design might be to give it a go. There is plenty of info on the web (check out http://www.wb-sails.fi/ for example) and some good but basic sail design software can be found here http://sailcut.sourceforge.net/ . BUT, it may take a few goes to get it right (never mind good), and that may be more expensive than shelling out for a professionally made sail in the first place. Ditto the mast.

I think that most people who get into the diy side of things (in dinghy racing, which is certainly different from dinghy cruising) will have probably started years earlier in cheap second hand boats like the majority, and gained enough insight etc from these experiences to give it a go when they decided to trade up on a budget.

I am currently looking into carbon reinforced wood spars like the DN iceboats have successfully used (but with shorter chord lengths) - see http://www.idniyra.org/articles.htm#masts . I am trying to ascertain how such a composite might work - my gut feeling is that the carbon, being a lot stiffer than the wood, might take up load before the wood and break. But this doesnt seem to be the case, or at least if it is then nobody has reported it. I would hope the resulting spar would be competitive with aluminium on weight, but with tailored stiffness provided by the carbon tow. The Lady Anne has carbon reinforced wood spars, and seems to be getting on ok too.

One can get rid of expensive fittings by simlifying things (though not at too much expense of control). A great idea is to use lashings instead of rigging bottlescrews for example - light and neat.

I also think that plans for home building could include plans and instructions for sail construction too. Precut sail panels could be provided in much the same way as you can buy a laser cut plywood kit.

I stress that all of these ideas will NOT give you the same top level of performance as you should expect if you have spent $10,000 on a new RS700 or Musto Skiff, but for a certain type of person with a certain level of experience and ingenuity a lot can be achieved with comparatively little cash, and you should be able to get very close, with practise... Phil Stevenson (who sometimes posts here) is a bit of an icon in this respect!

Some more interesting info (and this is only a drop in the ocean of diy info) on building can be found here:

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/masts.htm
http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/...ldingvideo.htm
http://www.moth.asn.au/carbon_moth.html
http://www.moth.asn.au/download/buil...skiff_moth.pdf
http://www.moth.asn.au/download/buil...h_hardware.pdf
http://www.moth.asn.au/download/DIY%20moth%20mast.gif
http://bateau2.com/content/view/114/28/
http://bateau2.com/content/view/115/28/
http://bateau2.com/content/view/116/28/

Incidentally, cracking looking canoe Steve (especially the rounded chine one)! I remember seeing Cogito in Yachts and Yachting when I was younger (1996?) and followed your success in the most recent Little Americas Cup. I really like the elegance of that concept...do you know if the British guys are going to have another go at taking the cup back from you?

Andy

[Steve Clark]

Andy,
As I understand it the Invictus guys are planning to have another go. But I think they have money challenges.
There are ways around everything given suitable experience and motivation.
There are people who are pretty excited about Tyvek and or Blue tarp as sail material. It would be possible to actually build a reasonable sail out of this stuff, but the time involved and the end product don't seem to really line up.
There is a legend that the first "tape drive" or "3dl" style sailes were made out of polyethelene drop cloths and fiberglass strapping tape.
wood masts are not all that hard to make, but getting them right enough for a "trapeze singlehander" is more of a challenge.
SHC