Should Power Assited Systems be Allowed?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by RHough, Dec 29, 2005.

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Should Power Assisted Systems be allowed?

Poll closed Mar 29, 2006.
  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    19.0%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Yes, but only in One Design Classes

    17 vote(s)
    40.5%
  4. Who cares?

    3 vote(s)
    7.1%
  1. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    IRC specifically allows stored power:
    14 MANUAL POWER
    14.1 RRS 52, Manual Power, shall not apply. This Rule may be amended by notice of race.

    and

    27.3.4 Stored power may be used for the operation of movable and/or variable ballast systems.

    IRC Rule 14 allows any rig or hull trim function to be power assisted.

    I guess there weren't enough sailing purists in the UK to prevent gutting RRS 52.

    IRC also limits boats to Monohull Keelboats. Thus any IRC race allows power assist and prohibits fast boats that don't require it.

    In my opinion this makes any boat built to take advantage of IRC 14 unqualified to hold records previously set by boats that do not violate RRS 51 or 52.

    Modern pure sailing machines have proved themselves to be faster than the sailing machines of the past. Lets keep IRC and power assisted records separate from sailing records.

    WO has a record because the rule she sailed under makes her legal. If the same rule allowed fast sailing machines, I doubt that she would have done so well.

    Make no mistake, WO was well sailed. She fairly beat the other boats sailing under the same rule. That is what racing and rules are all about. It is also the reason that Formula 1 lap records are not compared to NASCAR lap records, the rules are different and the performance cannot be fairly compared.
     
  2. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    I agree completely.
    Of the boats sailing under the rules used for the S-H, Oats won fair and square.
    I don't think it's fair, though, to compare WO's new record with the previous record. The existing record had been set under different rules. Class records can only be fairly compared under identical rules- hence why we don't compare Formula1 to F2000 racing, or why an ISF6000 Open solar car is not compared against a stock 5000. If the rules are changed, the new record is perfectly valid- it just can't be compared directly against an old record.
    ***
    Interesting idea- Pull out a calculator and find the square roots of the waterline lengths of the old and new record holders. Multiply the new boat's time by the ratio of those two roots. Might give a more meaningful comparison?
     
  3. gggGuest
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    gggGuest ...

    Exactly the same sort of rule exemption is required to permit every trapeze boat in the world. Its not that big a deal really. Must admit though you won't catch me on a sailboat that needs a motor running to operate.
     
  4. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    I asked the WSSRC why power assisted boats were considered for sailing speed records. Here is the reply:

    ---
    Dear Bah Humbug,

    For your information, the WSSR Council is a technical and not a political
    body. Our role is to monitor and ratify record attempts on behalf of ISAF.
    Powered canting keels etc seem to be quite acceptable by the sailing
    administration and are entered in races world wide. Rule 52 seems to be
    written out. So we are obliged to ratify their performances.

    John Reed
    Secretary to the WSSR Council
    ---

    I figure I have about 20-30 years of sailing left in me. It will be interesting to see how extreme mono-hull racers are allowed to go before I set the anchor for the last time.

    'Tis a strange and wonderful age we live in to be sure.
     
  5. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    "It will be interesting to see how extreme mono-hull racers are allowed to go before I set the anchor for the last time."

    Well, they are allowing "power assisted systems". Hell, while they are at it why not allow a second hull?
     
  6. safewalrus
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    safewalrus Ancient Marriner

    What has the last two pages got to do with the original question?:confused:

    For what it's worth - two things

    Moveable ballast - Merchant ships have been doing this for years! so whats the big deal!:rolleyes:
    Power Assisted winches etc (for those who forgot the reason the post is running - the rest is bullsh**)

    They're a bit like women at sea! As long as everybody has got one they are no problem!;)

    If only a few have 'em their a pain in the arse (and you can translate that anyway you want):mad:
     
  7. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    Moveable ballast - Merchant ships have been doing this for years! so whats the big deal!

    Because we are not racing merchant ships powered by diesel or steam engines. We are racing SAILboats that are supposed to derive power solely from the WIND.
     
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Sailpower! #2

    Since the purists are repeating themselves in a frenzy of unabashed retro thinking,I thought I would too in the opposite vein and for the record:
    This is more appropriate here than it was at the SH thread so I've moved it. It's about the best I can say on this subject:
    When the ballast moves, whether it's on an FD, Aussie18, Schock 40 or Wild Oats, the RM is increased and the boat is able to carry more sail and SAIL faster. It doesn't matter, in the scheme of things, how the ballast is moved because the boat reacts exactly the same way to the increased righting moment.
    Trying to denigrate the awesome performance of boats like Wild Oats because the boat is too big to move the ballast manually and it is moved by a diesel is just plain silly in my opinion. The boat SAILS extraordinarily well because of her extraordinary power to carry sail.It is a fantastic advance in sailing yacht design that big boats now have the ability to move ballast in a way similar to the way it is done on the fastest dinghies. It broadens the horizons of sailboat designers in many different ways that still have yet to be explored and it offers those of us that couldn't afford a Wild Oats a chance see what the utmost in technology can accomplish.It has helped big sailboats trancend the old images of sailing-imagine a 70 footer approaching 40 knots under sail! You bet it's sailing in the grandest tradition of the sport with risks increased many times over the old leadbellies. The guys sailing these high performance, technologicaly incredible, sailing machines are in the tradition of the greatest sailors of the past-to fail to see that is the worst kind of "purist" blindness; to fail to realize the new horizons of performance upwind and downwind intrinsic to these technologies is to intentionally deprive oneself of understanding one of the greatest revolutions in SAILING in the last two hundred years. Take the blinders off and open your eyes to the incredible, risky, exciting, beautiful new world of sailing technology unfolding right in front of you!
     
  9. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    The purists........in a frenzy.................... etc. etc.

    Doug, you miss the point alltogether; 2nd to that I would like to point out that nothing is against canters, nor CBTF, and that it might be obvious that you have some fingers in the CBTF pie is no deal at all, on the contrary, if you have the capabilities to come up with such a system, good for you.

    The point you have missed however, and I really wonder how, is that there is a massive opposition about the way HOW....... Do I have to revert to woof in SA who explained it more than clearly how those Anarchists confirm this "tolerated" class of supersailing yachts (no doubt about that) to be a dishonesty and have done a grave unjustice to the other contestants?

    It is very much possible that the whole event will be annulled (according to an insifer who heard that there is some heavy opposition is reared now the facts come up little by little)

    If the rules have been illegally "suspended" where are you than?

    And that's what they say.
     
  10. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Some of the current rules allow bringing a gun to a knife fight.

    Winning the fight under the rules in no sin.

    Allowing the guns at all is the moral question.
     
  11. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    okay lets review this:

    Wild Oats, Alfa Romeo, Skandia, Nicorette, and Maximus use power assisted systems. They use hydraulics to cant the keel and electricity to run winches and computers. (Maximus has manual winches which can be run hydraulically.)

    Konica Minolta, a fixed keel waterballasted supermaxi has to use pedestals to trim her sails, which are the same size or slightly smaller than the other boats. Is it fair that the other boats crews do not suffer physical stress from grinding?

    "When the ballast moves, whether it's on an FD, Aussie18, Schock 40 or Wild Oats, the RM is increased and the boat is able to carry more sail and SAIL faster. It doesn't matter, in the scheme of things, how the ballast is moved because the boat reacts exactly the same way to the increased righting moment."

    It does matter, because the boat reacts by staying upright and allowing you to carry more sail and go faster. The increase RM is due to the power of a diesel engine.
     
  12. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Pride and Predjudice

    D'artois, you can rest assured that the results of the Sydney-Hobart will NEVER be overturned!
    When some idiot says that a class like IRC A is a "tolerated" class "reaking of dishonesty" and "doing a grave injustice to other contestents" he is just flapping his gums in a most preposterus and sickening way. Everyone entering the S-H KNEW what the rules were or should have known. Everybody that follows this race knows that the publicity generated by the super maxi's is good for the sport and captures the imaginations of thousands of young sailors and non-sailors who see SAILPOWER! at it's most developed,sohisticated and refined form-SAILPOWER! in truly historic proportions.
    I think that these magnificent machines have been and are good for the sport and assuming that they have been fairly rated under IRC I
    think those complaining are either uninformed or just predudiced against the new technology. When you look at the race from a handicap perspective Konica Minolta was THIRD-pretty damn good for a fixed keel leadbelly that also beat a number of canting keel boats.
    ----------------------------
    Those that use "motor sailer" or "not sailing" to describe these big CBTF(or VOR 70's for that matter) raceboats are just being silly. Those that say "power assisted" are guilty of "attempted obfuscation";) because these big boats are doing just exactly what is done on trapeze boats,mini 6.5's ,Schock 40's : they're moving ballast to weather. It's patently absurd to say that it's ok to do that on these other boats but not on a 98 footer. The fact is you could be in a flat calm with the sails down and cant the keel and the boat would just sit there!!!The only thing the power assists is moving the weight-it does not generate ANY MOTIVE POWER WHATSOEVER!!!! It's up to the crew to set sail and SAIL the boat well or it won't go anywhere period- no matter how long the engine is run!!!!
    When ,in the course of human endeavor, purists ,retro thinkers or just plain nutty people have tried to place arbitrary and absurd limits on the ingenuity of mankind it almost always fails! These Power Ballast Systems are just that: BALLAST SYSTEMS allowing big boats to do what little boats do all the time. So laugh at the silly madness about "motor sailors, "not sailing" or "power assisted" but look at these new and incredible boats for what they are: magnificent achievements in yacht design,boatbuilding, sailmaking, mast building and crew skill!
    ======================
    For D'Artois and others: I have no connection with CBTFco other than that I MAY build a radio controlled ,specially designed, CBTF model that has been under development for some time for which they would receive a royalty and I try to answer questions and help rc sailors that write CBTFco to understand the technology. Any modeler anywhere in the world can do the same thing. I do believe in the technology and owe Bill Burns, Bruce Sutphen and Matt Brown a debt of gratitude for being patient with me and helping me to understand this technology before anyone outside a little room in San Diego had ever heard of "CBTF".
    Happy New Year-even to you purists and retro thinkers!
     
  13. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    To keep this out of the VO70 thread ... :)

    Paul Cayard has stated that his VO70 (Pirates) poor gybe performance is due to slow ballast shifting.

    "The American, who skippered EF Language to victory in the 1997-98 race, revealed the three wipe outs which saw his team fall from second to fifth position on Monday were not caused by sloppy technique, as he had suggested in the post race interviews, but a slow keel mechanism."

    Bigger engines and pumps = faster ballast movement

    Faster ballast movement = faster on the race course

    Thus we have an example of a sailing race outcome depending on the size of the engine.

    All else being equal, when you allow power assist, the size of the engine will determine the winner ... in a sailboat race ... sigh ... :mad:
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Not true in reality

    If you read what Vega quoted in the other thread it's clear that there is a deficiency in Cayards mechanical system-a design or sourcing defect. I'm surprised he'd sail it that way in the southern ocean. But there is an optimum speed for keel movement-the power and weight to move real fast is not warranted and would subtract from the design. As an aside, on rc models the keels MUST move very fast because of the quick reaction time of the little boats. That has introduced a problem that you'll love Randy: the keel moves so quickly that it can actually scull the boat-we're all looking at how to work this out! Of course, it causes serious battery drain....
    On a big boat that would mean a 55° to 0 movement of 1.5 seconds which would be impractical as well as being counter-productive.
     

  15. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    The bottom line for moving ballast systems is that quicker the ballast moves the faster the boat is.

    If I was crewing for you on a 49er your speed in a gybe would be limited to how fast I could shift my lard *** from one side to the other.

    When we scale this up to 70-100 ft. We have exactly the same situation, the boat that can shift it's ballast the quickest wins. That means more power wins races.

    Your RC analogy is a case in point. If there is enough power, the ballast movement can propel the boat.

    We have power adding to potential boat speed through increased RM now. Crews of VO70's already admit to using the ballast to roll tack the boats, with big enough engines they will be able to use the ballast to get the boat to surf and ultimately the ballast system on a 100ft boat could be made to scull the boat just like your RC boat does now.

    There will soon come a point that the rules will have to address the amount of power that can be used. That gives people like me a whole new area to find loopholes in rules to exploit. Offshore boat designers will be calling up people like Dale Earnhardt Racing to get help on getting the most power out of the engines they are allowed to use ... There will be a big fight on how to fairly rate 2-stroke vs 4-stroke vs rotary engines ... turbo chargers and superchargers will have to ruled on ...

    This is supposed to be about sailing, the only way to prevent the brave new world of skippers hiding NO2 bottles in the masts to give their ballast an extra kick is to ban the power assist completely.

    How much would you bet that if good old Dennis the Menace was still active, he'd find a power combination that would be technically legal, but waste the other boats on course?

    OTOH, it will be a great way to get sponsorship money ... ING might want to see if Ford and Shell want to come on board as sponsors ... The boat could have big "Powered by Ford" stickers on the sides and a huge Shell logo on the main ... just like a race car. The companies get to sponsor a "green" activity and no one will address the fact that any engine at all makes the boats pollute 100% more than the boats they replaced.
     
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