Schooner sail plan - need help

[Glider]

I'm building a gaff-rigged schooner and need to make some decisions regarding sail plan/rigging. I have some very preliminary sketches and would like to ask you for advice.

Few general notes on the boat:

• The hull of the boat is a slightly modified George Buehler's Juno, 37' (hull lines made similar to Juna).
• Displacement 10 tons, external ballast weight 2 tons.
• Two cabins, center cockpit (just aft of the main mast).
• Current construction stage - finishing planking.
• Deck and mast partners are already in place, but no holes made in them (so position of the masts is more or less fixed).
• The boat will be sailed shorthanded, so I would like to avoid backstays.

My current vision of the working sail plan is the following:

• Lead = 10% (CLP and LWL calculated including rudder)
• Working sails area = 67 sq.m = 720 sq.ft

Underwater profile (sorry for the bad picture - I'm not CAD expert):


I basically have two main questions:

1. The working sail plan on the sketch above - does it seem reasonable? Shall I change something?
2. The light air sail plan - how would you do it? I would like to avoid building a topmast, but I would like to be able to use topsail and/or fisherman's staysail. For the masts, I have sticks 42' long, but my ballast is relatively lightweight so I'm not sure if I shall make main mast any longer (on the sketch, it's 36').

Will appreciate your comments!

Regards,
Andrey

[MikeJohns]

My understanding is that the topmast is required to increase the luff length of the effective area for windward work particulalry in lighter air.

SAD is a ratio you can look up but it depends significantly on the geographic area you intend to operate in. Most higher lattitude boats benefit from the ease of handling from ruduced rigs. Even in the trades when they are blowing you seldom shake out the reefs even on a low SAD cruising vessel, but then you will need top masts for light air since the shorter masted Gaffer doesn't support big light air headsails very well.

Unfortunately only experience will tell you which compromises suit your style of sailing.

[lazeyjack]

privet!! Glider
would you consider the modern schooner rig , which is very successful?are you in Sochi< Black Sea, Murmansk,or St P, or Vladivostok?
got your mail Mike,

[Gilbert]

You could rake the masts a little more if you want to do away with running backstays. The stay sail should be bigger: the angle at the peak of the sail should not be less than 29 degrees, make it as large as you can within reason. Otherwise, I think it looks really good.

[Tad]

A gaff schooner rig is probably not the best choice for this hull. Due to low ballast ratio, high vcg, and low form stability due to narrow waterline and double ends, the heavy schooner rig will mean sailing on your ear a great deal (or early reefing).

If you really must have the schooner build all spars as light as possible (hollow) and go light on the rigging. Reasonable headstay tension will require runners. The gaffs preclude standing backstays, thus you really need runners for maximum rig security.

In light air I would set a big Genoa from the mainmast head, like a mizzen staysail.

[TeddyDiver]

Topsails without topmast..with Cornish yard or topsail yard with jack yard. Or maybe something like gunther sail..
Weather or not your working sailplan is correctly sized greatly depends in the wheathers you do your sailing. Anyway to me it looks saileble.. and though the rig is a bit heavy the VCG and COE are louuuw

[sail.scow]

A staysail schooner allows you to set the fore masts aft shrouds lower and support the forestay, and takes a lot of complicated load out of the fore mast. The foremast has spreaders and an uppers.
The jib stay, via the triatic stay, and the main staysail are tensioned by the main runners and main halyards combined.

Could the main lose a little area? You lose the weight of the fore gaff, and hopefully a little more from the main gaff, if you shorten it. Then dropping the fisherman would be a lot easier than fighting thrashing yards and booms while reefing. Load on the runners is decreased also. The main mast has a forward shroud and a runner. No uppers or spreaders...

Moving the fore staysail a bit helps with the reefing plan.You have more sail plan between the masts, so you can drop the fisherman first, then the jib, then the main staysail, leaving you with the main and fore staysail. After that you can decide on what configuration you want to fly for heavy weather and heaving to. Probably the reefed main and fore staysail would keep the boat jogging along, and put a final deep reef in the main, drop the fore staysail as the final step in reefing to keep the bow up...? Point is that there is just the main to reef now, and it only has two rows of reefing points.

So your original mast partners remain, the rig gets much lighter, easier to reef, and easier to support. SA is roughly the same, CE is just a little higher and further forward but as each sail is reduced, the CE moves aft. Dropping the fisherman lowers the CE quite nicely. And the gaff main remains... A gaff schooner has a classic look of course, but a staysail schooner has its own appeal, with a photogenic cloud of (easily reefed) canvas set... There is also the golly wobbler which is an easy to set light air sail...

Just some thoughts, but not too radical to carry out at your stage of the project.

[CT 249]

What happens to the head of a gollywobbler on a reach or a run? Since it is still leading to a centreline sheeting point (mainmast head) doesn't it generate too much depth for efficient reaching, without a gaff or wishbone?

Just curious

[sail.scow]

A golly wobbler is just a convenient way to drape canvas over a schooner. Not really an efficient sort of sail like we have become accustomed to these days.

I tossed it in while on the subject of photographic appeal.

[Glider]

Thanks for your answers! I took timeout to think about it and I have few comments now.

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Topsails without topmast..with Cornish yard or topsail yard with jack yard.

But what about fisherman's staysail? Is it effective without topmast?

Originally Posted by MikeJohns

SAD is a ratio you can look up but it depends significantly on the geographic area you intend to operate in.

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Weather or not your working sailplan is correctly sized greatly depends in the wheathers you do your sailing.

This boat will (hopefully) be doing offshore cruising. Like from Europe to South America to Australia. So, I would prefer to have a strong working sail plan with the possibility to add relevant amount of light wind sails.

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

are you in Sochi< Black Sea, Murmansk,or St P, or Vladivostok?

I'm in St.Petersburg. But I'm in the process of getting visa to Australia. Then I might finish the boat and...

Originally Posted by Gilbert

You could rake the masts a little more if you want to do away with running backstays.

As far as I understand, it's the angle between mast and shrouds what matters? If I rake masts more but leave aft chainplates at the same position, the angle in the longitudinal (fore-and-aft) plan will remain almost the same. Or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Gilbert

The stay sail should be bigger: the angle at the peak of the sail should not be less than 29 degrees, make it as large as you can within reason. Otherwise, I think it looks really good.

I was thinking about a boomed staysail. Even if I launch the boat with boomless staysail, I still might want to try it later, so I plan for it (considering COE etc.).

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

would you consider the modern schooner rig , which is very successful?

Originally Posted by sail.scow

A staysail schooner allows you to set the fore masts aft shrouds lower and support the forestay, and takes a lot of complicated load out of the fore mast.

Thanks for these ideas. I would like to stay with classic gaff schooner rig, but will consider these variants if original plan fails.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Glider

1.But what about fisherman's staysail? Is it effective without topmast?
2.This boat will (hopefully) be doing offshore cruising. Like from Europe to South America to Australia. So, I would prefer to have a strong working sail plan with the possibility to add relevant amount of light wind sails.
3.I'm in St.Petersburg.
4.As far as I understand, it's the angle between mast and shrouds what matters? If I rake masts more but leave aft chainplates at the same position, the angle in the longitudinal (fore-and-aft) plan will remain almost the same. Or am I missing something?
5.I was thinking about a boomed staysail. Even if I launch the boat with boomless staysail, I still might want to try it later, so I plan for it (considering COE etc.).

1. They can be used simultanously. Fisherman's staysail is rigged from the top of the foremast so with foretop they have some overlap. In the main you have other topsail.
2 (and 5) Three sails mentioned above +jibtop sail or a yankee and genoa (replacing your self-tacking staysail) maybe watersails and there's a lot of light wind canvas
3. Not too far..
4. Rake has a couple of advantages more. Boom head stays higher above water, heavy rig leaning backwards gives extra safety when (not if!) having trouble with running backstays, gaff hangs "of" from the mast easying hoisting and reefing

[Gilbert]

Some years back I laid out the sailplan for a schooner and someone, I can't remember who, convinced me to have a boom on the fore staysail. They also convinced me the pivot point of the boom should be a ways back from the tack to allow the sail to set its best. They also convinced me that the pivot point should be on a track that slides forward to allow the sail to come down completely and there should be a line going aft which pulls the car forward on the track and also a downhaul for this sail leading aft for times when conditions are bad or sailing short handed. This way the sail can be muzzled very effectively without going forward.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

and there should be a line going aft which pulls the car forward on the track and also a downhaul for this sail leading aft for times when conditions are bad or sailing short handed. This way the sail can be muzzled very effectively without going forward.

Cars and tracks in schooner Don't say it got winches too or aluminium masts ans spars

[KevinMcKee]

if you feel like you need more sail area you could always go with an overlapping forsail, Pride of Baltimore style. gives a good slot effect for the main, but makes tacking more work.

[Boston]

tacking with any overlap is a pain
let alone if you've got a few of em to play with
and that deck gets kind skinny up there in the wind
but all in all its a beautiful rig

Im looking at a friendship as a coaster and was thinking a storm sail set off the lowered gaff and the stay sail reefed would be my plan in tough times
keeps that center of gravity down and means I dont have to play with all that canvas

my two cents
cheers
B