Schooner sail plan - need help

[timothy22]

Glider, let me refer you to Chapelle's chapter on the Tancook whaler double ended schooner. this should give you a "feel" for what will work for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Rzb...sult#PPA164,M1

[PAR]

Tacking with an overlap isn't difficult, but it's very helpful if you've got some practice or you'll foul a sheet or get hung in stays, particularly on a schooner. I've single-handed both large schooners and ketches. If they're set up properly, it's not hard work, nor difficult.

I'm in the process of designing a new 26' "in the spirit of" Friendship sloop, Boston. Your best heavy air (storm) option is to reduce down to a storm jib on the baby stay, which is little more then a bed sheet and a trisail on a second track or lacing, over the lashed main and gaff. Attaching a sail to the gaff, even if of dramatically reduced area, will just apply huge loads to the gaff. The mast is much better suited to these loads. The weight of the lashed mainsail, boom and gaff will help control the trisail too.

[Boston]

please elaborate
I am most interested in what you have to say about the friendship storm rig

I grew up on the water
my respect for it borders on downright fear

Im going planning for the worst and hoping for the best as any goods sailor would

I think we may have just miscommunicated
I'm sure I have the terminology wrong as I have no experience first hand with the rig
but

I want a small triangular sail off the gaff
in hard times I will strike the main and lash the gaff and boom
I want a small triangular sail off the gaff once in this position
and all reefs in the stay sail lashed as well
balance is what Im after and a slight headway with lowest possible center of gravity
just enough to keep mo moving ahead through the seas

hell I should start a thread
storm sailing

my thing is as stated
plan for the worst
hope for the best

luck favors the prepared
B

[PAR]

We may be saying the same thing, just differently. A storm sail on the inner stay (baby stay) and a trisail is the usual setup. A trisail is a triangular sail with the luff on the mast, often with it's own (separate) track, the throat halyard is changed over, the tack is dogged (lashed, whipped, shackled, etc.) and the clew taken to the end of the boom, not the gaff. This would be typical for any gaff sloop, sloop with multiple headsails or cutter.

Many times the trisail's clew is attached to a padeye on the deck, not the boom and I've done this on a few occasions, when I thought the boom was maxed out. It depends on the point of sail you're on too.

Usually when you get into these conditions, it's best just to sheet the storm jib hard to the centerline and change tacks, without letting go the jib sheet (hove too). The back winded jib now spoils the air on the main and you can balance the yacht into a nice, slow jog, maybe a knot or two, with the helm to leeward on most boats. Technically, this isn't hove too, but just about. You can play with the main trim and helm to pretty much bring the yacht to a stop and skid sideways, with the bow about 50 to 60 degrees off the wind. This maneuver is a "buying time" tactic, but for most sailors enough to wait out a tide, fog, storm, etc.

If your Friendship has a traditional keel profile, she'll hove too real nice, maybe under reefed main alone. Each boat should be practiced in to find the sweat spot that keeps her head up, but the motion reasonable. There are other tactics in storms, but I've found the wisest is to calm the boat as best as possible and wait. Bashing along is just going to break something, probably the crew's will, not to mention gear.

Back to the trisail, the gaff just isn't hefty enough to accept the clew of a storm sail, the main boom is. With the Friendship's mast so far forward, you may not need a storm jib at all, but again you have to try it out and see what works as each boat is different, under each storm tactic.

[Boston]

yes we are on the same tack

although you have cleared up a few things
thats what I was thinkin

the jib reefed full and set hard to keel
or at least thats what we called it
and the main lashed
I just have never been in conditions that would require a storm sail sheet
to be independent of the boom
nor do I ever want to be

but
I do want to plan for the worst
so keep talkin
Im all ears

this is the kind of shit I need to know
my sailing days were as a kid on the cape
oh we had our share of scrapes
but nothing like the blue water times you guys can chew over
my thing is I want back on the water
and I want to be ready
whatever may come
thanks for the tips

B

[PAR]

Take a small sloop out in a thunderstorm and you'll get all the experience you need. Of course it would be wise to have reef points and maybe some home made storm sails so you can test your abilities and techniques.

Point of note; if the winds have built to the point where you're worrying about the boom, then you should have been under bare poles long before. On the occasions I've needed area up, I was avoiding a lee shore and HAD to make way into a gale to miss eatting rocks with my garboards.

Heavy air sailing is more mindset then anything else. If the boat doesn't have storm sails or will permit you to tuck in the last reef in the main, because the equipment is weak in the knees, then you're screwed before you leave the dock. Not knowing what to do or how to handle differing or deteriorating conditions will lead to not pleasant things in heavy air. You have to practice, which will show what needs attention, upgrading or alteration. Surviving storms isn't difficult if you and the boat are equipped to take it. The only thing that usually gets you, on a well setup and crewed vessel is fatigue. If in the storm long enough, even the mightiest sailor will succumb.

[Boston]

oh Ive done that
whats funny is that folks you would think would have a cast iron stomach end up heaving over the side
and the folks you would think are never going to make it
do just fine

as kids we used to go out when we new it was going to squall with folks we knew didnt
we were little shits

my thing these days is soon as I can Im starting in on a boat to go coasting in up through the Olympic peninsula to Ketchikan
I want to build for the worst and hope for the best
and Im torn between two designs
so this is helping
and your absolutely right about leaving the dock unprepared
I could tell you a really funny story about me Dad who did just that and only made it about maybe four hundred yards

[PAR]

We've all seen the forlorn boater who's a few hundred yards off the launching ramp, realizing he's forgotten the transom plug and that this is the likely reason the boat can't start. There's something truly enjoyable, watching a full grown adult thrash like a madman with a 36" canoe paddle, trying to bring his 21', 250 HP outboard powered, center console back to shallow water before it's sunk. Some of us get pleasure from the weirdest things . . . I suspect you're similar.

[Boston]

well Ild say I had a little incentive to enjoy the moment
hang with me but you may like this

these days if a parent wollops a kid the fire department shows up and the parent ends up frog marched off to prison

back in my day if you sneeze funny you could get thrashed to within an inch of your life at the local barbecue while folks comment how fast you are at ducking and dodging

so picture this

I was about ten it was summer and we're at the vacation house on the cape
my dad had been working on a skiff outside the boat house for all of two weeks
he had dragged it in from were it had sat for years from the side of the house
thing was a wreck and my grand Dad and I both thought it was hopeless
not old Dad, and he was dam sloppy about fixing it
my grand dad told him the wood was dry rotted and showed me what dry rot was
dad was pissed and painted it anyway
so I think just to make a point my old gran dad ( Robbie ) made it a point to explain to me all the things Dad was doing wrong
rode me Dad hard the hole way and made no bones about it what he thought
Robbie learned from his dad who was actually a working shipwright from the old country
thing was Robbie knew his business and old Dad was all thumbs
Dad scrounged all the stuff you should not scrounge
pulled out some old rope from the attic
stuck ore locks into questionable wood grabed an old lanteen sail
ok

so then he wants me to help him launch it and go for a sail
Im looking at the chopy conditions and the sky and Im thinkin no way
old dad starts in on me ( he was pissed anyway after all that ribbing )
so here I am on the beach in front of all my mates getting tar and feathered
my Mum sticks her head out the front door and yells
"oh Bob, come on were on vacation"
thanks for the help mom
and Dad storms off to the boat house

so that sets the stage
my Mum and I standing on the beach while old Dad grumbles and angry drags his pet project down the beech cause old Roby wouldnt let him displace his project in the boat house

so old Dad starts rowing on out
gets about a hundred yards and breaks an ore lock
looses the ore
then he tries to set the sail and the gaff ends up nearly killing him as the gear breaks
now old Dad hates the site of his own blood ( he never seems to mind mine much ) so he goes a little green
then the chop starts in on him
so he takes the one ore he has and kinda kneels in the bow canoe style
well that didnt do him any good either cause between the waves the wind and the tide he was heading out to see like it or not
then Robbie shows up and starts yelling at him from the beach
something about how maybe he should listen a little next time
my mom and I are just rolling
well the sea finnaly gets to old Dad and he starts puking over the side
finally one of the neighbors goes out in a little motor launch and saves him
Im not sure how long he was out there
time flies when your having fun
but that hour or two pretty much cured him of using all the old shit out of the boat house that had probably been sitting in there since the turn of the last century

was one of my favorite moments in life
the man nearly had to be carried off the beach

love and fond memories
B

I almost forgot to mention the audience he developed on the beach
must have been fifteen or twenty folks standing there at one point watching him puke

[Glider]

I'm slowly progressing on the project. I think that I more or less finished with the rig plan.

Now, I need to make holes in the mast partners so I have to decide on mast diameters. According to "The Gaff Rig Handbook" and "Elements of Yacht Design", my mainmast shall not exceed 160 mm (6 3/8") in diameter (mainmast length from deck to hounds is about 6.8 meters or 22', from deck to masthead is about 8.9 meters or 29'). I have also calculated mast loads and got even smaller diameter.

But I have some "feeling" that this (160 mm or 6 3/8") is not thick enough. Mainsail area is about 28 sq m (300 sq ft)., displacement is 10 tons and beam is 10 ft. Masts are solid (grown).

Do you think calculated diameter (160 mm) will suffuce?

[TeddyDiver]

So wooden masts.. If so I think smth like 270mm for the main and 210mm for the fore, anyway you wanted to avoid running backstays as a must (you should have them anyway even if they aren't used when the rig is lightly loaded).
If such large diameter solid masts are heavy then get hollow masts..

[PAR]

Provide the general dimensions of the rig, luff length, sail area on each mast, spreader locations, etc. and I can offer the size of the masts.

You'll need running backs, like it or not, unless you go with a fairly high tech rig, which would be quite out of place on a gaff schooner. I also think the fore is too narrow to stand well. It's head will twist off miserably, even with a vang.

I would strongly recommend against solid masts. There's no need for this extra weight high up in the rig, particularly if it's not helping much with strength.

My rough estimations place your solid mast at about 9" in diameter, not 6.375". This is a huge difference. BTW this single mast will be around 300+ pounds as a solid stick. A hollow, birdsmouth of similar strength would be less then 100 pounds. The 400+ pounds worth of mast weight you save using hollow sticks would equal about 2 tons of additional ballast, in righting force.

[Glider]

Thank you TeddyDiver and PAR.

Originally Posted by PAR

Provide the general dimensions of the rig, luff length, sail area on each mast, spreader locations, etc. and I can offer the size of the masts.

Foremast:
Sail area: 32 sq m (344 sq ft), of which 50% is foresail
Luff length: 5300 mm (17.4')
Length from deck to hounds: 7000 mm (23')
Length from deck to masthead: 8200 mm (26.9')
Length from hounds to masthead: 1200 mm (4')

Mainmast:
Sail area: 28.7 sq m (309 sq ft)
Luff length: 5100 mm (16.7')
Length from deck to hounds: 6800 mm (22.3')
Length from deck to masthead: 8700 mm (28.5')
Length from hounds to masthead: 1900 mm (6.2')

Angle between lower shrouds and vertical: 12.5 degrees
Angle between upper shrouds and vertical: 10.5 degrees (if without spreaders).

It will be interesting to compare solid and hollow masts options.

I also think the fore is too narrow to stand well. It's head will twist off miserably, even with a vang.

I thought that a gaff vang through a block on a mainmast can help. Couldn't one pull gaff peak to the centerline if needed?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Glider

Foremast:
Sail area: 16.3 sq m (175 sq ft)

All three sails? I think smth like 30 sqm all together..

[Glider]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

All three sails? I think smth like 30 sqm all together..

Sure, you are right - 32 sqm. I will update original post.