Samson C-Breeze (Boxmast Fears)

Hi,
ferro cement can be a real liability but can also affer great bargains. As far as insurance goes look only at liability as this is what marinas want for the boat to be there. If you own a ferro boat then do not even think of replacement insurance as you will save enough on premiums to cover any repair costs for damage to the hull. When buying a ferro boat give no value to the hull, buy it for the gear, motor, sails, mast and rigging etc etc. This is what a ferro boat is worth in the marketplace. For the $13,000.00 that you have agreed on, is the gear worth that? ( could you sell the gear for sufficient to recoup your costs if the hull proved to be faulty and not economically repairable). If, taking the above approach, the deal seems OK, then go ahead. Ferro boats can make excellent cruising boats and by your description of the boat and with a reasonable report from the diver, I would say that the project makes sense economically.
All the best.
David

 

Hi C,
So what did the diver find?

C**2

 

Samson C-Breeze Needs Saving

Diver found a smooth and visually sound hull. No Cracks, flakes, or visible repairs.

Unfortunately my wife and daughters were not keen on the amount of time I would dedicate to this project, considering the 60+ hours I normally work a week.

The boat was sabotaged by another shopper. She sank, was refloated within 36 hrs. She needs to be saved. The seller and I reached an price of 4,500 dollars. He has everything except for the masts. This coming weekend, a salvager is going to strip her of recyclables, including the engine.

Some one save her. Craigslist, Detroit, Boats, keyword "Sailboat". Tell him I sent you.

Cori

 

Samson C-Breeze

Hi Cori,
The reason I ask about the results from the dive is that I'm the one he's trying to sell her to now. It's a big project especially now that all is soaked with water and diesel below decks. It's quite a mess down there and of course everything above needs a re-do. He had a different story for me about the cause of the sinking and what your final agreed price was (but I expect that). The engine sunk as well and has sat in single digit temps since the boat was raised without anyone blowing her out. At this point the engine block may be busted due to ice so it needs checking. We're negotiating prior to it going to salvage so I may save the boat yet. Thanks for the information. I'll keep you informed of status and you're welcome to join in on the overhaul and sailing if it works out.

Chris

 

Samson C-Breeze Available

I agree, someone should save this boat. Decided I'm too inexperienced and underfunded to make this happen and I encourage anyone interested to check it out.

Chris

 

MoonShadow

He is an interesting character, as you should be able to gather from my previous posts. Regarding the sinking...sabotage was my conclusion. I viewed her back in Jan., she was dry, and you could tell she had never took on water before. It's a shame he did not have her dried out properly. I was going to go place heater and get the air moving the right way, but didn't for fear of liability. If I can raise the 10k needed to buy her, and get her to my side of the state, I probably will still buy. Buying with my money vs. family money, I will be able to put her aside and do her with cash in hand as I go. I did view the sails, anchors, met the "associate", viewed title, plans, notes through out her history.

This is the rare ferro that has all her documents, but is on life support via an out of town owner.

I exhausted google on everything ferro, became attached to the idea of this boat, but hit a wall at the moment of truth with my wife. Her gut says no, with the economy and all. Mine says NOW, with the economy and all. Wood for the Spars cost $4,600 here in GR. The guys on this site gave good advice to my previous posting. The seller does appear to have all the riging...

Let me know if I can answer any questions.

Cori

 

Moonshadow

Yeah, I found your postings while doing a massive amount of research on ferro-cement boats after I visited the Moonshadow. After visiting her once the Seller didn't want me diving or checking anything more until I put a deposit down. Very fishy. So, it was good to hear from you about the results of your inspection. They do have a heater going but that doesn't touch the engine compartment. Glad to hear you've checked out all of the equipment and paperwork. Those masts sound like an interesting project too.

 

Yeah, J. is definitely a fishy character. I was unsure about the legitimacy of the deal also. However, decided that I'm nobody to judge ones quirks. They do have all the paperwork, the marina backs up the story. The marina, however, will not touch the boat. You will have to have her towed around to the marina next door, they will lift her. They also have a line on a guy who will transport. Decent prices. The mast's, seem simple enough, just time and accuracy. With the economy the way it is, you should be able to find an experienced wood worker with all the tools to assist.

The boat is worth the time and money if you take her over seas. Check out sailsamal.com. A couple doing exactly what I want to do, in the same exact boat.

C.

 

Thanks C., J. is an interesting person. I hit it off with J. but he is a car salesman and he knows how to work a deal. Comes off as a pitch sometimes. But everything he has said has been basically honest enough. I had to check facts though to be sure and you've helped with that. D. has been helpful telling me about the history and getting info from her dad. All are good people. You've obviously done your homework on this and been very diligent in checking it out. I'll look into that link you sent.

Chris

 

good luck

 

You can't just inspect the hull by diving. For one thing there is likely so much build up it's going to be hard to get it all off anyway. I doubt he's cleaned it yearly.

Also this ferrocement boat must be hauled out to see if it can even support it's own weight. If its able to do that, isn't leeching rust, and is otherwise structurally sound then go for it. That's one reason he might not want it out. He sounds like a person who just can't bear to sell stuff even though he's not even using it. Some will let it become outdated and unused or rot rather than sell it for what its really worth. That's anything and not just boats.

I wouldn't waste anymore time with it. Tell him you'll buy the boat for x dollars (and I wouldn't pay much) as long as you can haul it out and have it inspected. Put 10% of the agreed on price in escrow with a third party with completion of the deal if it passes your criteria. If it passes you got a 'boat' and if not then you only pay for the haul out which he isn't going to pay for. Factor that into your price for the boat.

Personally you can get ferrocement boat projects for a song if you look. And they won't have sat for a long time. Less than 30K can buy you a Samson or Hartley (just make sure its really pro built) in a size boat you can sail on your lake now. They survey just as easily as this one.

You can also ask around harbors and see if you can claim abandoned boats. I'm sure there are some on here who can answer how to go about that. I wouldn't get 'married' to this particular boat.

I want to thank you for your post. It's just really pointed out to me that I just need to go out and buy a decent boat and get sailing. I've been looking for a couple of months trying to get it as right as possible. Buy what you can afford and go sailing. You can get a boat you and your family like and they can all decide if they like sailing or not. If they do buy your project and build yourself what you want; while you're sailing.

BTW, if you're into cars then you know it's cheaper to buy someones elses fixer upper than for you to fix it up.

JMO.

 

Run, not walk away

Read through this thread and I've concluded I would run, not walk away. In today's economic climate there will be better boats at better prices showing up regularly.

Right now anyone with cash is in the driver's seat - it is a buyer's market. If a seller isn't willing to play ball, walk. If they suddenly become reasonable on walking, do not turn around.

I would never consider a guarantee from a seller as worthwhile - you have no idea what their liabilities are or who is first in line for cash if they get some. Do you think you can get in front of the IRS or the courts? Never.

Whatever you do, get a full survey of the boat and have the estimated repair costs immediately deducted from the market value. This is the maximum you should pay - and start a lot lower than that. If the seller isn't willing to pay for the survey and you are in love with the boat, have them agree that the survey cost shall be deducted from the final sale price.

For what it's worth, those are my thoughts.

In addition, I would NEVER give a deposit directly to a seller - I would do so ONLY through an escrow arrangment at your lawyers with a clear definition of what conditions trigger release of funds. If the seller avoids this, again run not walk away.


--
Bill

 

Just as an update.....

Stalled out on this purchase, a free ferro came to market, via the original builder. Unfortunately he let it freeze in every year since the 80's. Needs massive TLC plus a set of sails. I touched basis with the MoonShadow owner, hoping to get a better deal, 2 for 1, only to have him call the giver of the free one and tell him that I was full of ****, was going to string him along and screw him in the end. Beware of dealings with the MoonShadow. It is unfortunate, as I feel MoonShadow as a hull is sound and beautiful.

In regards to a free ferro...remember, odds are that you can scrap her to recover cost, not time, but basic money. My free ferro has 7,500 lbs of lead in the keel....@ .20-.40 cents a pound.

Best of luck to all,
C.

 

Hi C.,

After expenses levied for towing, tearing it down, and ecologically disposing of waste, you'll maybe break even. Not enough brass to warrant the effort and the Perkins was sunk with no attempt to blow it out... including gearbox and shaft bearings. You know the cost of professionally built masts is $25K or more. I'm being told by experienced boat restorers to go dig a deep hole and throw my money in it...then cover. But, I understand your passion for this boat.

BTW, I visited that other boat last weekend. "B" is a great older gentlemen but it is a boat in great need too. It's unfortunate if "J" did really act that way toward him.

Take care,
Chris

 

C.,
Looks like I misread you. I see now you were talking about the lead in the free boat. My mistake. My comment about the lead still applies but I was describing the condition of the Moonshadow in the rest of that paragraph. Did you actually see the free boat? Skin coat is gone below the waterline. Quite a sight. I wondered if it could even be towed far without going down.
Take care,
Chris