Sales Figures for Sailboats Take Big Hit

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

We are solving that particular shortage in Australia with massive desalination plants that run on electricity produced by burning coal. We have effectively unlimited supply of coal that just sits under the surface so no water shortage here.

What do you do with the waste from the desal process?

Coal mining (and burning) is not generally seen as something good for the enviornment, or for the health of the miners.

On the bright side, when everyone else is out of water you'll have an increased "tourist" trade. Sort of On The Beach, but to a much greater degree...

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

As a matter of interest is there anyone else out there who is aware of the daily water consumption in their house?

Rick W

I know my morning shower uses more clean water than many villages have in the emerging world.

Actually, just brushing my teeth uses more clean water than the people in those villages have.

At some point this is going to be an issue.

[Guest625101138]

We wack the crap back into the ocean far enough out so it does not alter the salinity near the beach.

The mining is just large scale surface mining with automated equipment so does not need people other than the occasional maintenance.

Actually in my State we have been slow to get the desal up and running so we have had water restrictions for almost a decade now.

My family of 4 adults average about 130 litres per day per person. I have a friend with a family of three who has got their usage down to 60 litres per person per day. He works on the basis "If It's Brown, Flush It Down. If It's Yellow, Let It Mellow!". We are still getting there.

Rick W

[Willallison]

As I recall, this thread was about the decline in sail boat numbers...

For as long as I've been reading industry journals, sailboat sales have been declining - at least 10 years or more. Conversely, the sales of powerboats - particularly in $ terms has been rising: with the exception, of course, of the past year or so. All of which does little to support the argument that society is embracing a 'greener' furture....
But to take any statistic based on sales during the 'correction that we had to have', and try to extrapolate it to suggest any greater trend is nothing short of absurd.
And whilst I agree that the media-induced hype regarding the steadily increasing climate, has brought about an awareness - in some circles, one might even say a social rejection - of conspicuous consumption, the supposed newfound wisdom that you guys keep raving on about... where we all toss away all our gizmo-laden craft in favour of a lighter, less complicated water-bourne future just isn't bourne out by the facts.
To suggest that the likes of Brunswick Corp. & Beneteau etc don't understand the market is absurdity in the extreme. There always has and always will be a market niche for the kind of simple boats that so often get put forward as the 'saviour of our industry' - and thank heavens I say, as they are my favourite too. But will they ever become the mainstay of the recreational boating market? I certainly have my doubts....

[Chris Ostlind]

I have my doubts, as well, Will.... at present. I also see that things are going to change. When they will change is not within my scope with the crystal ball this morning. Something about cloudy inclusions working in resonant harmony with sunspots, or some such.

Like any significant change in a market, the real energy will need to come from the individual and work its way up. One guy will be washing his new version of a more efficiently operated ski boat sitting in the driveway and a neighbor will cruise on over to ask some questions.

The neighbor will go away with his light bulb turned on just a bit brighter as to concept. Most likely, he'll be even more excited by the potential of staying involved in the family sport for less money out of pocket each weekend. He'll do some pencil pushing regarding the shrinking family budget and the process begins to spread.

At least, I hope it will begin to spread.

I live in a city that is fairly well isolated from the major metropolitan areas of the Western US. We have a few boat sales shops in our area, which specialize in powerboats. The owner of one of the oldest shops is quite the guy when it comes to looking at his marketplace and making pragmatic business decisions. I see him once every couple of weeks to get a feel for his business and just shoot the **** for an hour or so on all things boaty. He's actually started to look at bringing in some models of boats with much lower front end and operating costs to see how they work in the market.

There's currently a massive flood of high priced ski and wakeboard boats sitting around in this community looking for buyers. High priced, as in USD$60,000 - 80,000 weekend rec boats. The kind of boats that absolutely slam down the fuel on any given skiing weekend and take another large load of fuel to haul them down to the south end of the state to put them in bigger water than our local mountain lakes. The good ol' days of running on down to Lake Powell for the weekend, two and three times a month, are fading fast as the guys who typically did this are busy looking for any kind of job to pay their home mortgages first.

It is from this kind of personal, financial awareness cycle, that fresh ideas about more efficient boating can emerge. Whether they will, or not, remains to be seen. I hope that the national boating community will look hard and long at the wake they leave in their past, take stock of what the future will, no doubt, hold for all of us and move the consumption paradigm in a more thoughtful direction.

[bistros]

This thread sure is an interesting read - even the hijacks and tangential musings.

It is hard to come up with useful comment as like most things there is more than a grain of truth to every perspective. Truth is subjective and means different things to different people.

Philanthropic enlightenment and saving the planet are worthy endeavors generally proposed by those who have participated in the damage and benefited from the very environmental problems they now propose to fix. Post industrial economies complaining about the careless damage done by emerging industrial nations are hypocritical at best. I harbor no illusions about the PCBs in my capacitors and tricholorethane used to wash my circuit boards.

Nor do I fear horribly for the future. Although a re-distribution of wealth and standard of living is in progress, the world system is a closed one. In economic terms these fluctuations are just that - and they will attain balance again.

The real thing to have your eye on is resources. People are cheap to produce, but expensive to maintain. Land and resources are impossible to produce without war or conflict. Since post-industrial consumers prefer leather couches to field artillery, I can't see huge battles looming. To some degree the Chinese population is becoming more comfortable and wealthy, and the first consequence of comfort is a distaste for pain and struggle.

Oil is a declining commodity, but certainly not as fast as many people think. There is a serious amount of more expensive oil available, once prices can bear the cost of retrieval and refinement. Witness Alberta's oil sands which were once too expensive to produce. Alternative energy is becoming more cost effective as oil prices rise. An acquaintance of mine has a three tower wind farm here in Ontario and the existing power infrastructure has priced transmission of his available power such that he can't compete with hydroelectric and nuclear suppliers. His eco-friendly power production has to produce for thirty years right now to recover the initial investment. The production cost is acceptable, but the incumbent competition isn't easily giving up it's place for a new nose in the trough.

Back on topic, I don't think the average Western consumer will remove their rose-colored (due to oil residue) glasses to consider unpowered boating any time soon. I think boating power plants manufactured in less expensive countries will adjust prices downwards to compensate for upwards pressure on fuel prices. I think boats will be produced by the cheapest labor that meets quality standards - and the final buyers will not consider the environmental impact of the production process. Guys like Paul B. are teaching the quality/value lesson well. All this to say, I think PWC sales aren't in for as much trouble as large cruising yachts and offshore fisherman.

I see a resurgence in simple homebuilds. I think Woodenboat has really hit an interesting nerve with their fuel economy challenges. I think battery-electric drive trains are really interesting and becoming practical. Most of my family boating on Lake Huron could be accomplished cheaper with an electric motor. The 20 HP Merc from the 70's on our steel fishing boat could be replaced by a ply hull and electric drive that cost a fraction to operate. And I could sell the outboard and hull for enough to buy the parts for the replacement, as long as I can buy Far Eastern batteries and forget about how they were made.

--
Bill

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by bistros

...Since post-industrial consumers prefer leather couches to field artillery, I can't see huge battles looming. To some degree the Chinese population is becoming more comfortable and wealthy, and the first consequence of comfort is a distaste for pain and struggle...

Unfortunately, another consequence of looking to maintain a life of comfort, is that when the comfort starts to dwindle... and historically, it always does, those same folks who valued their comfort and laissez faire behaviors, suddenly become anarchists of the highest order. Down comes the established system and another, much more disorganized raping begins. Even a quick read of history will show us that lesson. It is right around the corner if we fail to recognize that which we have created... and then, do something in a bold manner to write a different story.

Ask Britannia if they currently rule the seas. Ask the Russians if they learned anything from Czarist lessons that inevitably became oligarchic domination. Reach back further and look at Italy (Rome), Greece and Iran (Persia) and see what foolishness they perpetrated while disregarding the obvious signs.

Until someone shows me a clear path to another solution than that which has come before us, I see human kind as a behavioral lab rat with absurd, built-in answers that eventually become the same old story writ large.

At the same time that I see these societal maladies, I see small groups of individuals who are pursuing different behaviors in order to effect solutions. These solutions have less to do with the profits of the here and now and much more to do with the ability to maintain the species through sustainable actions. Existing business models are not sustainable as a functional paradigm. I'm hoping that we do not have to experience a full-on, global collapse in order to get that through our thick skulls.

We're talking about whole economies based on resources that have finite limits. I do not see the tar sands, or oil shale deposits as viable possibilities in a world where clean water for the sustenance of life is the most important resource we can husband. It takes vast amounts of fresh water to process these petroleum deposits. Using the water for that pursuit is as deadly to significant areas of the planet as the setting off of dozens of thermo-nuclear devices.

We're supposed to have brainpower and reasoning, coupled with our opposable thumbs, as our advantage over the animals. Right now, it looks like we are just falling in line with the same old boom and bust of the typical herd mentality... only the stakes are much, much higher than ever before. Now, the impact is truly global in its reach and if we don't quit screwing around with our environment, there won't be much over which to fight for many, many years in the future.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Unfortunately, another consequence of looking to maintain a life of comfort, is that when the comfort starts to dwindle... and historically, it always does, those same folks who valued their comfort and laissez faire behaviors, suddenly become anarchists of the highest order. Down comes the established system and another, much more disorganized raping begins. Even a quick read of history will show us that lesson. It is right around the corner, if we fail to recognize that which we have created... and then, do something in a bold manner to write a different story.

Don't know if I agree completely. This was valid when there were weaker, unexplored and unexploited territories to abuse, and there was also no instant global communication. The consequences of conquest and anarchy are noticed quicker and condemned faster than every before.

As the high fences in our world are breached, and our awareness of others goes up, our capacity to blame and hate drops. Media spin control gets harder and harder as the reins to the media are taken over by citizens, not goverments.

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Ask Britannia if they currently rule the seas. Ask the Russians if they learned anything from Czarist lessons that inevitably became oligarchic domination. Reach back further and look at Italy (Rome), Greece and Iran (Persia) and see what foolishness they perpetrated while disregarding the obvious signs.

Until someone shows me a clear path to another solution than that which has come before us, I see human kind as a behavioral lab rat with absurd, built-in answers that eventually become the same old story writ large.

Given that isolationism is dead as a result of the globalization of economies, historical examples just don't play the same as they did back in the day. You can't say the American economy is unhurt as a result of the "Coalition of the Willing's" attempt to "bring freedom" to Iraq. China's repatriation of Taiwan and Hong Kong are other examples of how the expression of imperial might can be tempered by the problem you may be upsetting the customers to your economy. Countries can no longer operate in isolation, secure in the knowledge that they can ignore external influences.

This media we are posting on today didn't exist 50 years ago - and it changes a lot of the rules - even more so than the invention of the printing press because it communicates instantly, without duplication cost and prejudice.

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

At the same time that I see these societal maladies, I see small groups of individuals who are pursuing different behaviors in order to effect solutions. These solutions have less to do with the profits of the here and now and much more to do with the ability to maintain the species through sustainable actions. Existing business models are not sustainable as a functional paradigm. I'm hoping that we do not have to experience a full-on, global collapse in order to get that through our thick skulls.

We're talking about whole economies based on resources that have finite limits. I do not see the tar sands, or oil shale deposits as viable possibilities in a world where clean water for the sustenance of life is the most important resource we can husband. It takes vast amounts of fresh water to process these petroleum deposits. Using the water for that pursuit is as deadly to significant areas of the planet as the setting off of dozens of thermo-nuclear devices.

We're supposed to have brainpower and reasoning, coupled with our opposable thumbs, as our advantage over the animals. Right now, it looks like we are just falling in line with the same old boom and bust of the typical herd mentality... only the stakes are much, much higher than ever before. Now, the impact is truly global in its reach and if we don't quit screwing around with our environment, there won't be much over which to fight for many, many years in the future.

I am in agreement with you on many issues. I don't think we are hopeless and doomed to take the same path as those before us. I do not think that path is open and viable any more. George W. Bush has proven that conclusively.

--
Bill

[Landlubber]

It is interesting, but man is a resourceful creature, we seem to be able to adapt quickly to an immediate threat, yet bury our heads on other matters.

Paul, nothing personal mate, I too spent time in China, just returned after 3.5 years boatbuilding there, so know first hand the circumstances of the matter.

Sailboats (as well as motor boats) are faced with the RV vehicle market. It is the market where most boating exists..recreational.

The modern RV has all the mod cons that we try to shove into the boat, with one major advantage...you drive it home and then to work the next day. So it is versatile...the boat has to be washed down, cleaned up and maintained, the RV has a bath too, but it is of to work we go the next day.

Competition of this level undermines sales of boats...the wife can forget doing almost anything when they go for a "drive" yet if the boat is used, then everyone has to "help".

It is much easier to sit and watch the idiot box on the weekend than it is to go boating.

If you are a keen boater, no big deal, it is what you WANT to do, if you are a prospective new comer...maybe they see it quite different to "us".

[Nige in NZ]

Sailing will never stop having appeal to people.
I recently bought a 23 foot Van De Stadt design ("Yachting World "Buccaneer)
for NZ $4000 and am loving it.
I'd done bugger-all sailing before (lots of power boating, though) and it's just added a different dimension to life, being able to get out on the harbour at weekends.
My yacht has a small diesel engine, full sail wardrobe and basics like a gas cooker , but there's no flash 240kW generators or anything happening.
It's the perfect one or two-man yacht for weekend sailing or overnight camping.
But if it cost $60,000-70,000 to buy a yacht then I'd have never been able to afford to get into it.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I wonder if the videos of arrests and beatings of "dissidents" nearby political conventions here in the USA in the past 10 years also haunt you?

Yes. In fact they do. I do remember saying in my last post that we were becoming more like China.


Really? Almost daily? Moreso than "bad" news regarding companies here in the USA?

I agree the difference is getting to be less and less. But Mr. Skilling has gone to the Supreme Court to try to escape punishment. It seems his pleas are fulling on deaf ears. If the same thing can happen in China, I haven't heard of it. I get the impression of an atmosphere of anything goes, over there, if your high enough up.


Yes, horrible. One company did it, cut costs and caused problems. The guilty have been punished.

Have they? What about the inspectors? I heard the greedy farmer who was doing it was shot. But what happened to the officials that were supposed to be checking these products?

Maybe you remember some other issues with powdered milk and infant formulas, from companies not in China?

Yes. I remember a certain Swiss company That was trying to push infant formula on those they knew couldn't afford it. I remember signing petitions against them. I was never even threatened with arrest for doing so. I doubt I could do the same in China.

Perhaps you have even heard the term "Jalisco Cheese"?

This was maybe the most overblown story I have ever heard of. No one was poisoned by any toys. Some items failed the lead content limits in the paint. A child could have eaten ALL of the tainted paint on any of the toys in question and not been harmed by it, other than being sick from eating something that is not edible.

Remember. These people knew there was not supposed to be lead in the paint. They did it anyway because they had no expectation of ever getting caught. Or they had the expectation of not suffering any ill consequence if the did.

Most of the toys that were recalled did not fail, it was done as a precaution.


Really? Someone in the USA pointing fingers at any other country when discussing prisons? Not only do we have terrible policies that keep our prison business booming, but we also have secret gulags across the world and engage in kidnapping and secret rendition.

I do agree. We are truly the nation of incarceration. But this stupidity was brought about by the American voters. It can be removed by them as well.


A lot of this is run by private mercenaries hired in our name. I recall when I was a kid we were taught that US citizens could not legally work as mercenaries (could not join the French Foreign Legion and then come home). I guess things have changed.

True. True. The change seems to run with 'Globalization', which, to me, seems to be a code word for everyone lowering their standards like an ethical limbo dance. All to maximise profits, of course.

Who "enforces" contracts here? Yes, I realize you have been educated by the media that everything in China is corrupt. Must be, they are Reds! Not like here in the good ol' USA, where court decisions are NEVER made to favor a particular political party, or wealthy family, or corporation.

I never said that. But here it is still newsworthy when it happens. And there is the expectation that that is not the way it's supposed to be.

Believe it or not, the government is very concerned about workers rights in China. I should say governments. People in the USA see China as one giant blob of sameness. It is not. It is more like thousands of small "countries" that have a nodding agreement with the central government.

I really have little idea on how the Chinese government REALLY works. You are right. I do depend on the media.

I have no vested interest in holding any view. I know the facts. I don't think you do, and don't know what your vested interest might be.

My 'vested interest' is that it is much harder to find a decent paying job here. I am presently working (knock on wood) but have no idea how long that might last. I am making, in real terms, far less than I was making fifteen years ago. And I NEVER worked for the big three.

Your 'vested interest' is that a good part of your paycheck has to do with trade with China.

It doesn't matter if they could live on their income in the USA. What matters is can they live on their income where they live?

I disagree. Remember, A lot of the Chinese miracle is financed with debt. American debt. China holds a great deal of American bonds which someday will have to be repaid. Meanwhile, as the situation here gets worse, people here are inevitibly going to be buying fewer and fewer Chinese products. There is no way I can see a happy outcome to this. Maybe a livable one, but not a happy one. I hope we deal with this situation differently than we did with the Japanese situation that was somewhat similar in the 1930's.


The answer is YES. If you check with NGOs like Business for Social Responsibility you will see the idea is not only should minimum wages be for minimum lifestyle, it should include a hefty percentage for savings and purchasing power.

That is good as long as trade is mostly internal. Raising one standard of living at the expense of destroying another, is never a good idea. Especially when the standard of living that is being destroyed is that of customers you are utterly dependent on for survival. This is true even when We are the ones doing the destroying.

Most of the workers in the factories I deal with make far more than the minimum wage, some double or trple. Most have their own cell phones, shop in the local markets for "designer" clothing, and pretty much live happy lifestyles comparable to their counterparts across the planet. They are mostly from poor farming families, and their wages not only support them but also their families back home.

When I started going to China the workers were mostly girls from ages 16 to about 18. They would come to work to save a dowry so they could go home and marry. Now the mix is more like 50/50 Male/Female, with many in their 20s. They have decided to forgo the farming life of their parents and carve out a life of their own in the big city.

I think the lifestyle and contribution to the world is much more on the side of the average Chinese worker than it is the 4th generation welfare mother in Chicago or Mississippi.

I most heartily agree. But how many Americans are living on welfare? Most that I know ARE working, or at least trying to find work.

It is not the fault of the Chinese or Vietnamese worker that our production has been outsourced. I'm sure you are happy that the TiVo you bought last year didn't cost $2,000.00.

I agree. Not at all. It is the fault of greedy American business men who want to make products like $50 gym shoes for three dollars a pair and STILL sell them for $50. I don't have a TiVo. I only have internet because I have found someone I can latch on with. And it usually doesn't last. I do have a decade old computer mostly made in China. And I will freely admit that I would probably not have one at all, or have a much older model if that weren't so. But I feel I have paid a very high price for this privilege. A life of economic uncertainty along with a country falling down all around me and the feeling something even worse is to come of this.

I don't see much different in the "corruptness" of the USA gov't vs China. I do know that much of what our elected officials get away with would have them retired and probably jailed in China.

It does seem that corruption is getting worse around here. Our political process is being driven almost entirely by access to huge amounts of money. But we are still at least nominally a democracy. It seems that in China, any reform at all is at the pleasure of those in power. Maybe they are more responsive now because they fear an uprising of their own people and they don't want to end up like the Soviet communist-permanently out of power.
If their system works better than ours, which at times it seems to, that says some terrible things about the future of democracy. But we have been fooled before. There was a time the Fascists were seen as the glowing wave of the future.

Some very high ranking officials have been convicted there in the past few years. So I don't know where you get your info that only "little guys" get punished.

I hope they were punished for actual wrong doing, not just for being out of favor with the ruling cliche.

[Paul B]

Since this is a Boat Design Forum, and not a political one, I will not reply to some of the more political comments.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

I agree the difference is getting to be less and less. But Mr. Skilling has gone to the Supreme Court to try to escape punishment. It seems his pleas are fulling on deaf ears. If the same thing can happen in China, I haven't heard of it. I get the impression of an atmosphere of anything goes, over there, if your high enough up.

Actually, I think the people in authority in China are held to a higher standard than our elected representatives are.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

Have they? What about the inspectors? I heard the greedy farmer who was doing it was shot. But what happened to the officials that were supposed to be checking these products?

Well I didn't hear of anyone being shot. Seems you believe lots of people are shot there.

I'm not sure who or how dairy products are checked in China. Actually, the product that caused the problem was powdered. I also don't know how things like nuts are checked here in the USA. Seems to me it was just about a year ago a company here distributed quite a few tons of tainted product, and when it was investigated it was found they had been out of compliance for many years.

I didn't hear, were any company officials or inspectors taken out and shot for that fiasco? That was a far bigger issue than the melamine milk issue in China.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

Yes. I remember a certain Swiss company That was trying to push infant formula on those they knew couldn't afford it. I remember signing petitions against them. I was never even threatened with arrest for doing so. I doubt I could do the same in China.

Again, your view of China seems to be based on some 1960s comic book. It would be simple enough for you to see examples of people peacefully marching in China if you looked.

For example, the Sundance Channel ran a documentary on the earthquake in China. It was about a town where the school fell down during the quake, killing many of the town's children. It was new construction, but not built to a high standard.

The families of these children thought the local gov't was corrupt and caused the issue. So they marched on the state gov't. No one stopped them, or shot them, or stopped the cameras from rolling.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

Remember. These people knew there was not supposed to be lead in the paint. They did it anyway because they had no expectation of ever getting caught. Or they had the expectation of not suffering any ill consequence if the did.

Believe it or not, lead is allowed in the paint and substrate. There are limits, and those limits have been coming down recently in the US and EU regulations. The old limits still apply in other markets. So it is possible a factory sub-contracted to someone who had the paint for the old regulation and used it because they did not know better, or because they thought they could get away with it.

The two biggest players in that fiasco, both USA based Fortune 500 companies, have been in China for a long time and know the issues. Both have made business decisions to not use external labs to test their products. This saved them millions of dollars. They both have their own internal labs, and those labs have produced reports saying the products conformed to the regulations.

So now the laws in the USA have changed due to the fallout from this incident. Children's products have to have testing by an outside lab to qualify for import. However, both of those companies have lobbied to have their internal labs considered as outside labs, so they can continue their business as usual.

So who is the bigger problem in this story? They little sub-contractor in a village in China, or the big USA multinational?

By the way, if you are over the age of about 40, all the toys you played with as a kid had more lead in the paints than the toys that tested positive in the incident.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

Your 'vested interest' is that a good part of your paycheck has to do with trade with China.

Considering more than 70% of my production was here in the USA last year I would argue that point with you. Well, it was in Texas. I assume they are still part of the USA, but I have not checked today's news to see if they have seceded.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

But we are still at least nominally a democracy. It seems that in China, any reform at all is at the pleasure of those in power.

As it is here, and has been pretty much since 1776.

Originally Posted by sharpii2

I hope they were punished for actual wrong doing, not just for being out of favor with the ruling cliche.

As old Ronny Reagan would say, "There you go again."

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Since this is a Boat Design Forum, and not a political one, I will not reply to some of the more political comments.

Actually, I think the people in authority in China are held to a higher standard than our elected representatives are.




Well I didn't hear of anyone being shot. Seems you believe lots of people are shot there.

I'm not sure who or how dairy products are checked in China. Actually, the product that caused the problem was powdered. I also don't know how things like nuts are checked here in the USA. Seems to me it was just about a year ago a company here distributed quite a few tons of tainted product, and when it was investigated it was found they had been out of compliance for many years.

I didn't hear, were any company officials or inspectors taken out and shot for that fiasco? That was a far bigger issue than the melamine milk issue in China.




Again, your view of China seems to be based on some 1960s comic book. It would be simple enough for you to see examples of people peacefully marching in China if you looked.

For example, the Sundance Channel ran a documentary on the earthquake in China. It was about a town where the school fell down during the quake, killing many of the town's children. It was new construction, but not built to a high standard.

The families of these children thought the local gov't was corrupt and caused the issue. So they marched on the state gov't. No one stopped them, or shot them, or stopped the cameras from rolling.




Believe it or not, lead is allowed in the paint and substrate. There are limits, and those limits have been coming down recently in the US and EU regulations. The old limits still apply in other markets. So it is possible a factory sub-contracted to someone who had the paint for the old regulation and used it because they did not know better, or because they thought they could get away with it.

The two biggest players in that fiasco, both USA based Fortune 500 companies, have been in China for a long time and know the issues. Both have made business decisions to not use external labs to test their products. This saved them millions of dollars. They both have their own internal labs, and those labs have produced reports saying the products conformed to the regulations.

So now the laws in the USA have changed due to the fallout from this incident. Children's products have to have testing by an outside lab to qualify for import. However, both of those companies have lobbied to have their internal labs considered as outside labs, so they can continue their business as usual.

So who is the bigger problem in this story? They little sub-contractor in a village in China, or the big USA multinational?

By the way, if you are over the age of about 40, all the toys you played with as a kid had more lead in the paints than the toys that tested positive in the incident.




Considering more than 70% of my production was here in the USA last year I would argue that point with you. Well, it was in Texas. I assume they are still part of the USA, but I have not checked today's news to see if they have seceded.




As it is here, and has been pretty much since 1776.




As old Ronny Reagan would say, "There you go again."

OK, Paul. You have the last word.