Sailors wrong for thousands of years?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by backyardbil, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    **** off Doug. I'm leaving your nonsense alone, show me the same courtesy. If you think I was writing about your non-ability to deliver anything, it is you that made that association, not me.

    I was talking about armchair experts not anyone you've mentioned. And by the way, I posted a design brief, got feedback, built it, sailed it, showed pictures and have witnesses. I then posted another design brief, got feedback, built it and my son sailed it. Got pictures and have witnesses. Stop your slagging of people that actually build things.


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    CutOnce
     
  2. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Hobie Alter and many more like Jim Brown and the others listed refined basic concepts by using new materials and logical engineering. Lighter, stronger, lighter still, simpler, lighter again. They did not invent anything new as far as I know, just made the old and proven, better, and the formerly impossible, normal, by recognizing the advantages of advances in materials technology as applied to sailing vessel engineering.
     
  3. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    This boat was designed, built and sailed by me for 35 years so far. Not everyone's type, but did the job it was designed and built for and continues to do so. At the time everyone told me what a radical design it was and how it wouldn't work.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/RVUSTUDIO?feature=mhum
    Part three of the video Learning From Allen on this channel shows her surfing downwind in gnarly conditions with no one at the helm, as usual.
    I love to see out-of-the-box solutions to the eternal problems of propelling a craft with wind power, but have yet to find anything new and different that really works except maybe the "helper" rotors on some experimental motorships which decrease fuel use. But I notice none of the big shipping companies have adopted any sort of wind assistance so doubt it's economically feasible.
    The many proposed kite-sail and windmill ideas are interesting but again, trial-and-error over a long period (50k years for our present systems) are needed to make them work, like say...... at sea, 2 am, sudden wind shift putting you on a nasty lee shore with nowhere to anchor, goes calm for a bit, sudden gust from another direction, switches back onshore and blows hard enough to snuff out the fires of hell, raising a sudden steep sea. None of the various proposed alternatives to 'sails on a mast' would do well in the scenario above but everything from the clumsiest old sailing barge to BMW Oracle would be able to cope, though the barge may not be able to weather the sea and could blow ashore while the modern boat with its improved weatherliness through careful (expensive) engineering and construction will beat out to safety. They both function exactly the same, one is more efficient, not radically different.
    A boat has to not only 'work', but be economically sensible to build, operate, maintain and repair or no one will ever build or use it.
     

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  4. Windmaster
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    Windmaster Senior Member

    On a windmill boat there is no such thing as a "lee shore" and it can't get "blown" anywhere except upwind. That's completely possible, just needs the will and belief to develop it.
     
  5. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    You are unclear on the concept and do not understand what is means to be paralzyed by conditions and have obviously never been in a serious lee shore situation which can overwhelm even a motorboat due to violent motion throwing the prop about. Yes, the spinning blade of your windmilly thing generates lift to windward by strenuously revolving a propeller to push the craft. Absolutely every other part is drag and gets "blown" straight downwind to that lee shore that does not exist for this type of boat. The balance between the two forces, drag and forward lift, decides which way you go.
     
  6. Windmaster
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    Windmaster Senior Member

    There will always be situations which are dangerous. No claim is being made here to overcome the most extreme severest conditions, every boat has its limitations.
    Having built and tested many models including fullsize, I do have an understanding of drag and thrust etc. thankyou!
     
  7. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    "There will always be situations that are dangerous." The problem with any watercraft in actual use on real bodies of water larger that a frog pond, and especially one propelled by the wind by whatever means, is that the operator cannot pick the conditions it will be exposed to if it is used beyond day-sailing (looks like fun on flat water in a stiff breeze with your whirligig) for an afternoon or limited summer coastal hopping or on a small lake.
    Conditions and "situations" pick you, usually at a bad time and place unfortunately. This is why some boats change little, because they survive the changing conditions of their environment, don't drown their owner/designers, and are replicated as successful. Also why even the most radical carbon fibre/kevlar/foam core multihull doing 30+ knots is just refined old stuff that worked in the past and is being taken a little farther now by talented engineering sailors using cutting edge materials.
    Theory is wonderful and essential, but when the engineering overcomes the obvious present limitations of this very old idea you are so enthused about (see Herreshoff and several others) I will be the first in line for a ride.
    Something "works" when people want it and will use it and therefore pay for its building, storage and inevitable repair. Few of the millions of fiberglass sailboats in marinas world wide get more than 40 hours use a year, like most private aircraft. Where is the need/market for this idea?
    Please share your research with us as that's what this forum is for. Specifics, power/drag ratios, displacement, lines and the reason for them, bearing and shaft materials with design proposals, propeller considerations, show it work in the real world and you will be listened to a little more closely.
    If this problem was dropped in my lap it seems that the combination of highly-controllable, large enough to generate some real power, turn-table mounted vertical air blades (maybe 3-5?) that are quite wide and curved when full but can get much narrower and flatter in strong winds while being thrown about viciously and can be lowered completely if necessary combined with well-known vertical water blades like modern tractor-tugs should be explored since their development is quite advanced.
    The windspeed varies wildly while the water prop has to provide constant "push". Maybe the air blades would change angle/size in response to wind speed and keep turntable speed constant. Something has to transmit power between the two and absorb the surges and it's hard to do it mechanically without complex things that break. Electricity and battery?
    Keep us posted.
     
  8. Windmaster
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    Windmaster Senior Member

    The research is fully shared.

    It's on the website http://www.sailwings.net
    This is a very interesting line of research and I wish more people would have a try at it. You can be pessimistic and look for the worst possible cases that will prove a project impractical, but you don't know the limitations until you have actually tested it. Many things turn out to be better than expected.
    For anyone who is interested to actually MAKE something and not just dream about theories, I have posted plans and instructions on the website on how to construct a demonstrator. http://www.sailwings.net/windspinner.html although it is extremely simple to construct, I have not so far heard of anyone making one. If anyone does, I would be very pleased to hear about it, and see the pictures and test results.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Rotary Sails

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    Peter, I find what you are doing very interesting. There are all kinds of designs suitable for only specific conditions. Inland lake scows are among the fastest monohull sailboats but can't be sailed in conditions a lot of other boats can-so what. I don't think that there has been enough development to know for sure what the limitations of rotary systems can be or how "hybrid" designs could be developed as Bataan suggested. I wish you good luck and I bet a small inshore version just for fun would be a way to capture the interest of a lot of people.
    Best of luck and thanks for presenting your information which I will spend time studying.

    PS-Peter is this picture a modified Thai MK IV cat? Looks about the right size for having a lot of fun with.....

    Most impressive video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlqLHRE8ReQ&feature=player_embedded

    click on image:
     

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  10. Windmaster
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    Windmaster Senior Member

    The boat was a wooden boat called a SeaSkater (12ft). Apparently, they were built in North Kent (Whitstable) uk about 30 years ago. It has since been sold and has been restored by the new owner to it's original (conventional) sailing specification.
     
  11. Dave Gudeman
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    Dave Gudeman Senior Member

    I haven't seen you jumping on all of the other designs on this forum from people building canoes, skiffs, and air boats, to complain how impractical their boats are because they can only be used safely under limited conditions. Similarly, I've never seen jehardiman jump on any discussion of sail design to point out that they are wasting their time because sails will never be practical for container ships. Also, I've never seen anyone pounce on home-made submarines or sailing kayaks on the grounds that they don't see much of a market for such boats.

    So, really, what is the point of jumping on a discussion of a cool technology to point out all of the things that it's not likely to be good for? Here is the question: is it possible that someone could build a wind-turbine boat that would be fun to sail in some easy-to-find conditions? If the answer is "yes", then do people really need any other justification to discuss them on this forum?
     
  12. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    The tech is very cool, and I haven't seen those other threads. As an old CG guy I hate seeing people do stupid things on the water and dying, so tend to overstate the dangers and see the things that always go wrong. My apology.
    It sounds like you're carrying a torch for a design concept you feel very strongly about.
    I in my deepest heart would like to see this work but as a practical engineer do not see the avenue beyond novelty at this time. Some smart person will come up with a new ultra-low loss power transmission system that is simple and cheap and another will perfect a new rotor of some kind that will not cut your head off and will be easily reefed and provide enough useful power to attract development money and yet another will see which combo of hulls/foils/platforms will actually make sense. Otherwise it'll always be the same under the only conditions I ever see these interesting models sailing, light winds and flat water. The problem of inertia loads aloft when the hull reacts sharply to waves, even a big ferryboat wake, is real and will break things eventually. If prop is small, small power, if prop is big more power but a lot more weight without proportionate gain in strength.
    Just practical engineering problems I bring up friend. If you can solve them and make this work for real I will be the first to congratulate you.
     
  13. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Went to the library today, found a book on the Herreshoff family with a picture of the same set up as the pop bottle rig with the front prop in the video, but on a small skiff about 12 feet long.
    LFHerreshoff said his father's brother had invented the idea about 1850.
     
  14. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    And therein lies the point I was trying to make: Those the fail to pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it.

    "Everything old is new again" is a curse, not a proverb.

    --
    CutOnce
     

  15. Windmaster
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    Windmaster Senior Member

    Thanks for going to the trouble of researching this, however, I've lost count of the number of times people have mentioned this.
    So to save it being mentioned again. There is NO CLAIM that this is a new invention. In fact, it has been traced back to 1350 - in imaginary picture form (never built). The aforementioned LFHerreshoff's may in fact have been the first actual working one. The purpose of the pop bottle design http://www.sailwings.net/windspinner.html is to give an incentive by example to those who want to try it out for themselves. Anyone who actually makes one exactly as per the diagram there, will be amazed at how well it works. Not just marginally, but strongly and robustly (as indicated in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rw_qJytbG8 mentioned in the original post). Considering it took from the 14th century to the 19th century for a proposed design to actually be constructed and tested, I suppose it's no surprise that development of this concept is so slow!
     
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