Sailing video project

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Stumble, both Dr. Sam Bradfield(designer of the Rave & Skat Hydrofoils and a B Class speed record holder), and Greg Ketterman( VP at Hobie and designer of the record holder Long Shot and the Hobie trifoiler) are working on new projects-both hydrofoils. Don't know if they would participate but it is possible. Bradfields first Osprey(18' all carbon foiler) is almost done -I don't know the status of Kettermans boat.
E-mail me if you'd like their contact info-it never hurts to ask......(click on my name to access my profile and e-mail address(also check out my gallery sometime).

 

Couple of points here:

This is a public forum, and everyone is welcome to post. It is incumbent upon the reader to decide whether or not to accept the posts as relevant or valuable. I've found that there are some poster's opinions I value, and others I disregard. There is little value in getting upset with responses.

It seems to me that talking exclusively to people highly engaged in sailing is like kissing your sister. I expect that talking to people uninvolved in sailing might gain more insight into why people are not interested, and what things do attract their attention in regards to sport and recreation. There is no value asking Mr. Lord about foiling ... anyone here for more than a week can already write his response for him. There is major value in asking people out looking for recreation opportunities what turns their crank.

To a great degree, CT249 has touched on some good points - the boats in my opinion that have had the greatest positive effect on the sport are the Opti, Laser and the Mirror Dinghy. All three brought completely new people into the sport in great numbers, all changed the yacht club membership paradigm, and all tapped into a vast group of people who could not afford to take the established route into the sport.

Despite all the noise to the contrary, I don't see a great renaissance just around the corner for sailing. Global economic problems, reduced to eliminated leisure time and funds, plus dwindling places to sail all are undeniable.

To me, high speed, high skill boats miss that mark for the majority in today's reality (and my current reality). If I've got any time left from work for recreation, I want to spend it with my family, not away from them. I'm selling my high performance boats (which I love) and building a family boat. If I've got four to five hours per week for recreation, I want to spend it with family. If that means the boats I'm interested have changed and high performance is off the table, so be it.

The other global trend affecting things is where youth and money are concentrated. High performance boats are typically sailed by younger people, and are only affordable by those with money. During the post-WWII baby boom, this excess of youth with money was located in the Western world. The US, UK, Australia, Canada and allied societies were where the dinghy performance explosion took place. Current economic redistribution of wealth has lowered quality of life in these places, while raising quality of life in Asia societies (but certainly not to post-war Western levels!). The baby boom is over, and as one of the last official baby boomers (1960 birth), I'm seeing a different world that that portrayed in Happy Days. The whole concept of employment pensions (my Dad can explain it to you) doesn't exist any more, except in some quickly disappearing sectors.

Although Mirabaud, the Foiler Moth and the like are fascinating to me from a technical perspective, I've honestly aged out of them. My son isn't interested in high speed sailing because he can't find a free wireless hotspot on the water.

I think a review of the book, Saving Sailing is worth a review. I think your search for significant designs should first figure out what is real significance, and then present a balanced presentation of more than performance significance, including other significant qualities like longevity, market success, functional utility and future contribution to energy problems.

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CutOnce

 

Stumble.

Perhaps you gentlemen have cast too wide a net in your search for material for an as yet to be determined overall topic?

I'm looking at this as a consumer of a finished media product and do not care how it plays for other considerations. Bottom line, would I pay to own, or watch, such a presentation as it is being defined? Right now, there's no chance I would be interested.

 

Logging back in to answer this as it was from the OP;

Sorry, Stumble, I did misquote you by referring to "designed without knowledge of hydrodynamics" in one post instead of correctly quoting your phrase "poorly understood hydrodynamics".

I have already admitted that I made the error. We all occasionally make minor errors in composing posts, as you have done yourself. I have not attacked your credibility or personality on the grounds of errors in your posts (spelling errors, typos and arguably some factual errors) so please do not attack my credibility or character on the grounds that I made a minor writing error like you did.

I didn't twist words. I did take issue with claims by other posters, such as the one that the "top crews" and "best sailors" in places such the UK and Australia sailed Rater-type craft, as there is no evidence that they did. That is not twisting words, that is addressing claims that were made without proof and which denigrate those who sailed other (mainly slower) classes.

Please note that I did not attack you personally and it would be nice if you would react in the same way. I got into this thread because you had asked for comments and I wanted to raise the point that many developments come from OD classes and that many high-performance developments are only adopted by a very small percentage of racing sailors, even over long periods. Insulting me doesn't change those facts in any way.

I did get a bit irate about your post 19, which used words such as "laboriously making it to windward", "languished in the doldrums of slow, ackward, and difficult boats to sail, restricted by the realities of heavy weight, poorly understood hydrodynamics, and unsuitable materials".

Surely it is not misquoting anyone or twisting any words to point out that the use of such terms is uncomplimentary to the boats they describe and perhaps to those who choose such boats? I admit that I may well be over-sensitive about such matters, but then again what's so bad about taking issue with uncomplimentary remarks about certain boats?

If I have offended you by discussing facts such as the fact that foam sandwich originated in ODs or that noting that the wider influence of boats like Cone is an open question, then how much offence is going to be felt by those people whose beloved boats are going to be called "slow, awkward (and of) unsuitable materials" and contrasted with modern boats, as in the planned script contained in your post 19?

However, as BDF now appears to be about playing the man rather than discussing boat design issues, I'll check out.

 

Reality check. Who is going to watch real life competition or buy/watch videos of, for example, average powered street cars, 50-125cc street motorcycles, versus F!, moto GP or superbikes? The same analogy applies to developmental yachting. The comparison is such that there is no comparison. Just IMO of course.

 

Hello Stumble
This is long, and may ramble into economics and sociology but now being a schooled and very experienced Hollywood film pro, and in the past a Mystic Seaport and others museum researcher, a 30-year master shipwright on everything from steam tugs to IODs and Knarrs, a tall-ship Bosun, designer/owner/builder of a fairly strange 23 ton yawl, and now Creative Producer on a team that makes very cheap and always profitable "Grindhouse" features I feel I have something to observe, and I've quoted from the thread to help my ramblings along.
Please pardon me if I go on, but you can always change the channel....
---
Head in the clouds department.
From the thread responses, it should be obvious that the wording from your post set some people (your audience) off and 'off-ended' them, which means they won't watch your film and will bad mouth it.
This didn't have much to do with the idea of film itself, which seems promising in some ways, as it does your perception of audience interest, and are they like you:
" I am an attorney who sails as much as I can, not an expert in the development of sailing technology history. Which is exactly why I asked for suggestion."
Which suggests to me as a producer that you may perceive your audience to be like yourself- to be a fit male professional with disposable income. This isn't what you said, but what I hear when I consider your project. Even if unintentional, some sort of snobbishness and classism in the proposed narration was very offensive, at least to the respondent below. Remember, you want every audience member, not just the ones from a certain sailing/jock/geek/rich class.
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"So despite all the publicity given to quick boats, the vast majority of sailorschoose to sail Beneteaus and Lasers and FSs and Sunbursts and Int 12s and Fevas. So either 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of sailors are ******, or the slower boats are NOT shitheaps that "laboriously make it to windward" and "languish in the doldrums of slow, ackward, and difficult boats to sail, restricted by the realities of heavy weight, poorly understood hydrodynamics, and unsuitable materials."
Unless you think the vast majority of sailors are *&^%$#@ - and that's one hell of a claim that needs on hell of a lot of proof - you've got to assume that they sail what they sail because it gives them more enjoyment than sailing other classes, which means that such boats actually work damn well."

See your poor wording which caused this reaction? This in not the way to narrate a film, pissing off 999...% percent of your audience of sailors.

"As for insulting others... I did no such think, and actually fall in that group of people who you say must be wrong. I grew up racing J-35's and Lightnings, PHRF racing other boats of all types, spent a lot of time on non-maximized race boats, and currently own an Olson 30. That being said, the first time I went and raced on an Andrews 70 the difference was amazing. Yes the loads are higher, but everything worked cleaner, faster, and with less trouble due to well though out deck equipment."

Your bias, always a problem in films, shows in your experience. You were rich enough to grow up racing in boats of all types. If you can keep social class out of your production you'll have a lot better audience acceptance. Very very few of the viewers of any successful production (yours) grew up racing sailboats or could afford an Olson 30's price, berthage and maintenance.
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"Arguably, creating such massive social change in the sport is a lot more important than just playing with shapes and higher tech to make boats go quicker so they get back where they started sooner. And the significant thing is that the growth did NOT occur from increasing performance, but from increasing accessibility. That theme has been a regular one in sailing since the 1800s - technology used to increase accessibility improves participation, technology used to increase speed doesn't, and often reduces it.

When you say "we want to show people that sailing isn't just a boring, slow, rich mans sport, but instead can compete with the most extreme of sports any time any where" doesn't it beg two questions? One is, do people REALLY think of sailing as boring and slow? When Peter Johnstone paid big bucks to do a major consumer survey, he found that people DID NOT think sailing was boring and slow - they thought it was too hard, too inaccessible and too complex. That's what put them off the sport, so there are problems with portraying sailing classes that are hard to sail, almost completely inaccessible, and complex to own. I don't know about 65 year old women sailing Moths, but I do know that the local ex-49er sailor and a 65 year old mid-fleeter are finding their Moths very hard to sail in the fluky conditions you get near most sailing clubs....and exactly how many "average people" get to sail a Volvo 70, Extreme 40 or

Second, why promote the extreme side at the expense of the accessible side, given that extreme sports aren't very big. Most people prefer less extreme sports just like most sailors prefer less extreme classes. The Volvo Open 70 looks great, but the simple fact is that it is less popular than the older IOR RTW racers. There seems to be only about half a dozen sailing clubs in the whole world where you get regular strong fleets (ie 15+ each week) of skiff types or really high-performance monos, apart from the Aussie skiff clubs which are in a rather different league as some of them pay each boat about $300 US each week just for sailing.*

Fast boats are great, but why slag off slower ones? So I suppose I am a detractor, in that it seems a bit odd for a video supposed to promote the sport to attack classes like the Flying Scot that make up the backbone of the sport.

Finally, to use a Flying Scot or similar class going upwind as an example of an older boat and contrast it with a Volvo 70 screaming downhill is an unfair comparison. It's like contrasting a 1940s station wagon stuck in traffic with a modern F1 car at full bore. The FS was never designed to be a speed machine. A closer comparison would be a VO 70 compared to (say) Ragtime....how many non-sailors would look at the Youtube vision of Ragtime doing 20+ in the Hobart and say that was boring???? How many non-sailors would look at a Polynesian canoe or proa or 505 or Manureva or Rogue Wave or a vintage 18 in a breeze, or even this 1971 Fastnet winning S&S leadmine, and say "how boring!!" but then get excited about a Volvo 70?"

The above is a very good analysis of the problems of public acceptance of yachting in general and your film in particular.
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As an ex-shipwright and after a career change, now a film professional who has worked for Disney, George Lucas and Jerry Bruckheimer, nominated by Visual Effects Society for VES Award for "Best use of a miniature in a motion picture in 2003" for work I did on POTC (Lord of the Rings won the award, ****) and presently being an independent producer about to sell a film, I can assure you right now that the distribution is not the easy part, but the very hardest one. First things that come to mind are: Netflix just raised their rates and lost customers, video stores are closing everywhere due to online access, and theatrical distribution is very rare for documentaries. Typical Safeway rental corner has 200-300 DVD titles, all proven sellers. Of the thousands of films why would they pick yours, especially given the very small target audience? You may do well with impulse buy DVD rack sales in boating stores like West Marine but they pay as little as possible.
With 5000 independent productions a year being produced just in the US, it is very difficult to get your product on shelves unless you have an up-front deal with a successful distribution company that has access to the desired markets around the world or a product that is so fantastic, so utterly over the top mesmerizing, that it breaks the rules.
This rarely happens. MARCH OF THE PENGUINS and WINGED MIGRATION were two that broke the mold, but then they were fabulous films everybody could identify with. Penguins are cute and everybody dreams of flying and producers dream of $100 million movies, which these were.
Your producer has '20 documentaries' (about what? where sold? all 20 please) and a number of 'featured films' (titles please)?
Any professional thinking of working with this guy would immediately go to IMDB and see if any of his stuff made any money or was any good and just what his credit was on it. I worked on all the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, but that doesn't mean I was a producer on them. If his product flopped (no make money) or they couldn't find him in IMDB they wouldn't touch him with a long boat hook. Printing a business card makes you a film producer, selling successful films makes you a producer that people with an idea and money (you) want to work with.
Never take a producer's word for anything until you have made a film with him, then you will know him better than your wife or kids.
We as a class are famous for spinning incredible lines of BS, especially to those who are not in the industry.
Having gotten that off my chest, on to your proposed film.
Sailing is so out of the experience of 95% of the population that marketing a film about it, even the radical high tech fast boats, is to imitate Sisyphus and keep rolling the rock up the hill, only to have it roll back again.
Someone who lives a thousand miles from the nearest ocean does not have much interest in a sport that seems to them to be pointless circling and following strange rules they don't understand. Sure it's cool to look at for 5 minutes, but then they want to change the channel. We sailors forget that people who don't sail don't understand:
1. How the things work.
2. Why anyone would care.
3. How it has anything to do with them personally.
4. How anyone could tolerate such a blend of boredom and terror.
5. What's the point? Why don't they just get speed boats?
I'm an old sailing pro and even I find the idea tepid and the proposed narration fluffy and ignorant.
Your (cough cough) production meeting notwithstanding, really deeply analyze your market, your distribution strategy, your audience. Explore the idea with other producers since we are all looking for good material ALL the time. I'm sorry but your description of the PM sounded like a pitch session, not a production meeting. PMs are full of problems being talked about, not rah-rah'ing the product and
Then script and then budget your film down to the last detail, working out your pacing very carefully, or your $300K will disappear like straw in a hurricane and you will have a lot of nice home movies to show your friends. Remember WIND? A movie about sailing America's Cup with big stars and millions of bucks made by Hollywood pros. Complete flop and had some of the best sailing footage I've ever seen.
If H'wood can't sell the concept, you should really examine how you're going to do it before you do something stupid and start spending money.
--
Having said that...
This is more positive.
"A video like Stumble proposes offers the opportunity to show a much wider audience, than heretofore, what is being accomplished by innovators in modern sailboat design-most people don't have a clue about the fact that a 66lb sailboat is the fastest sailboat under 20' beating multies and mono's. Or that they have to use jet ski's for umpires in AC 45 racing and that there is real concern about how to umpire the new 72' AC boats due to speeds above 40 knots on San Francisco Bay.
Most people have no clue what a wing sail is, what DSS is, what many of the new technologies are and how they are being applied.
I don't see any attempt, in any way whatsoever, to slag off the many traditional forms of sailing. I see this video as a way to entertain and inspire people in ways they would never imagine. This video seems to me to be about
the joy of sailing fast boats and the exuberance found by the people who do it-it is a celebration of sailing, an illustration of modern development and a
way to foreshadow incredible new developments in sailboat design that have the potential to create new ways to sail.
I think the video is a tremendous effort with great potential to help people that otherwise might never know what is going on with gifted innovators who love to sail and want to share their experience."
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And...
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"Despite all the noise to the contrary, I don't see a great renaissance just around the corner for sailing. Global economic problems, reduced to eliminated leisure time and funds, plus dwindling places to sail all are undeniable.

To me, high speed, high skill boats miss that mark for the majority in today's reality (and my current reality). If I've got any time left from work for recreation, I want to spend it with my family, not away from them. I'm selling my high performance boats (which I love) and building a family boat. If I've got four to five hours per week for recreation, I want to spend it with family. If that means the boats I'm interested have changed and high performance is off the table, so be it.

The other global trend affecting things is where youth and money are concentrated. High performance boats are typically sailed by younger people, and are only affordable by those with money. During the post-WWII baby boom, this excess of youth with money was located in the Western world. The US, UK, Australia, Canada and allied societies were where the dinghy performance explosion took place. Current economic redistribution of wealth has lowered quality of life in these places, while raising quality of life in Asia societies (but certainly not to post-war Western levels!). The baby boom is over, and as one of the last official baby boomers (1960 birth), I'm seeing a different world that that portrayed in Happy Days. The whole concept of employment pensions (my Dad can explain it to you) doesn't exist any more, except in some quickly disappearing sectors.

Although Mirabaud, the Foiler Moth and the like are fascinating to me from a technical perspective, I've honestly aged out of them. My son isn't interested in high speed sailing because he can't find a free wireless hotspot on the water.

I think a review of the book, Saving Sailing is worth a review. I think your search for significant designs should first figure out what is real significance, and then present a balanced presentation of more than performance significance, including other significant qualities like longevity, market success, functional utility and future contribution to energy problems."
---
Nice suggestions at the end, but will never sell a film. The only way this would work I believe would be all adrenalin, nothing but fast, faster, fastest, and throw in some (at least 3) spectacular pitchpolings (preferably with fatalities), lots of girls in bikini tops and sailing pants, and alcohol. Avoid "talking heads" like the bubonic plague, keep interviews to 20-30 seconds of fluff and cut back to the action.
Remember, your audience is basically made up of poorly-educated people (a growing trend with present de-funding and demonization of schools) with the attention span of a fly.
cynically yours,
BATAAN

 

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Bataan, isn't this very close to what Stumble's plan is:

 

Bataan, you're actually more boring and long winded than CT249 (who actually knows about yachting - but takes a peculiar scoutmaster attitude to it) and for someone adept at crowing about your own achievements in boats and film industry, perhaps you should consider the word .... edit ... because if your films have as much flannel as your above screed, then no one is going to bother watching/reading your smug viewpoint nonsense.

 

My partners and I make 75 minute long trashy grindhouse horror/suspense films with no redeeming social value, no philosophical ideas but have boobs, bullets and blood and keep your heart pounding to the end, and they sell.
I said at the beginning it would be long and boring and you could change the channel.
Why did you read to the end? This was about making a video for a perceived audience. You try making a movie and selling it and tell me about it.
Original poster wanted opinion on his video idea and I think it'll lose money unless he analyzes his market and tailors content to suit.
And the narration still sucks and is snobbish.

 

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I think the attempt you were making at well reasoned dialogue just went to hell with this comment. I've been sailing for 56 years in all types of boats,I've lived on the water or near the water for 40 or so of those years and I don't think the following comments could in anyway whatsoever be classified as snobbish nor do I think the "narration" sucks. In fact there was NO narration just a few proposed comments from one meeting thrown out in good faith with the clear stipulation that this was not the final script or any part of it. The comments reflect an exciting vision portraying the startling development that is occurring and has occurred in modern high performance sailboat design. Comparison of older technology with newer technology is not only a reasonable way to proceed it is essential to bring home to the audience mind blowing developments in sailing technology. Only the most limited of individuals could find an insult nesting in amongst the beauty, power, and extreme optimism demonstrated by showing firsthand the power of the wind being harnessed in ways most people would not have a clue about. This video can be an eye-opening and exhilarating experience for sailors and non sailors alike. It can potentially inspire, encourage, inform, entertain and blow the minds of an audience that will never have realized the depth and breadth of the new technologies that harness the wind across the globe.
I think the comments by CT, cut once and chris o. would be more accurately described as snobbish than the following snippets from Stumble because they propose the idea that no one would find the extraordinary sailing performances envisioned by Stumble to be the immensely exciting
experience that he envisions. They propose the ludicrous assertion that showing new technology sailing with old technology would be an insult to the old technology-rubbish! Further, there is no question in my mind that, properly done, a video like this would be an incredibly uplifting and inspiring experience for sailors and non-sailors alike.
PS- BATAAN-The girls in bikini's was a damn good suggestion.......

Stumbles original comment:

 

It's ignorant. "In the age of discovery sailers (sic) plyed (sic) the world in boats designed both for speed and comfort..." Rubbish, lacking in fact.
Vessels (ships, not boats) of the "age of discovery" were designed for capacity and durability, not speed, and nobody gave a rat's butt about the comfort of sailors, expecting 1/3 of them to die on a voyage. I was Captain of the replica Columbus NINA in 2002 and know a bit about it, having done my homework, unlike the writer of the above.
Moving forward a few hundred years to classic yachts, anything by either Herreshoff is not slow or awkward, though a 120' steel schooner can be difficult to sail.
It's simply bad, poorly thought out writing, not a bad video idea, and I'm a screenwriter so I have an opinion.
Obviously this would be a cool video, even uplifting, but it still shows rich people playing with expensive, useless toys and will have problems getting normal people to watch it to be uplifted in a severe recession.
If someone pitched this to me in its present form I would turn them down as a money loser feeling that if they can't get basic facts right they probably can't get a movie right.

 

Our cast members might look funny but man.... they sure are good at pulling down a chute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkILnPfs6Ck