Sailboats are faster but not cheaper. Why?

[dboater]

Originally Posted by zeevonk

Bavaria are mass producing ugly sailboats in Beiren far fom any sea like they are producing cars there. All holes in the deck mold are cut by a robot for example.

For their size you could call these boats cheap.

Hey zeevonk, where is Beiren located specifically? Is it an actual city or just another name for Bavaria, if it is a city could you tell me where exactly on a map i could find it. Also is it the same as beirich?

[rayk]

How about cheap boats made in China or India for sale at half the cost of present models?

Enough room in marinas for these boats?

Want to go sailing out of sight of land in one of those things?

Will a cheap boat be capable of a refit or ready for a land fill in twenty years?

Hmmmm....

[messabout]

D'Artois;
You stated that the US govenment does not wish to talk about environmental things. That is a misconception. Perhaps we do not "wish" to talk about environmental issues but we do. In fact our industrial complex is overburdened with rules and regulations that are not favorable to the company owners. We have been berated for our apparent disregard of the Kyoto Protocol but that does not mean that we are not conscious of the environmental problems and doing something about them. There are very many US government regulating bodies that viciously, albeit responsibly, influence what we can and cannot do. Things as basic as paint have been regulated to such an extent that the manufacturers are hurting. If a US entrepeneur were to try to start an automotive paint and body shop, the regulations are so severe that he'd spend a fortune on compliance equipment. Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) you know. A neighboring business uses a sizeable quantity of paint. His rags that are used for cleaning are required to be placed in a particular kind of certified 55 gallon drum and sealed. He then must pay 400 dollars per drum for approved disposal. He does not get the drum back for re-use because that is against the rules.
Forced compliance with regulations has caused the price of everything to escalate.

I did not mean to hijack the thread with political stuff. Just a bit of information for our friends in Europe and elsewhere. Regulations we have, and they trickle down to all of us including the the boat building industry with certainty.

The fact is that sailing is not attractive enough to our masses. It is attractive to we forum members but we are not large in number. There are so many entertainment opportunities for the population that we are seriously fragmented in our preferences. Each of the many things we are offered as entertainmet competes with each of the others for the available time and money.

There is a finite amount of money available for all those various entertainment and recreational things. Some people spend on Big screen televisions, some go to sports events, the theatre, they go fishing, they go to Las Vegas to gamble, they spend money on their cars or motorcycles or swimming pools or fancy dining out. That leaves little money available to become involved in an obscure activity like sailing, especially when the cost of entry is so high. Add to that reality, sailing requires at least a modicum of skill. Too few of those masses are interested enough to study and learn. People want instant gratification, a learning curve is out, here and now is in. What the hell, If they want to go boating, they can buy a bass boat or a jet ski and take no lessons at all. Besides that, you can water ski behind an overpowered speed boat. That is the mindset of the majority.

I'm a dedicated sailor myself, and I'd like to see a lot more people indulge in that activity. I do not hold any hope that they will do so.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by xarax

Sailboat industry failed to follow the lead of car industry.

The reasons given for the high costs of boat manufacture here so far are all pretty much valid, except for D'Artois' comment about the US government not caring about environmental issues - that's just inaccurate information, as Messabout demonstrated already.

I question the original premise quoted above. Mass produced autos cost far more today than they cost 30 years ago, even adjusted for inflation. How could we possibly expect limited production items like boats not to have risen dramatically in cost as well?

I'm not saying I am happy about the cost of autos or sailboats. I am sort of happy that there aren't more boats; there are too many "eejits" (as my Irish grandfather would have called them) on the water as it is.

Cheers,

Charlie

[longliner45]

one example is(that messabout used) is auto paint industry,, you see that over the years we learnd that paint can kill you ,,so as a curtisy to our workers we invite employers to use saftey equiptment ,,exaust fans and such ,,were as we compete with china and india and other countrys that dont care about the workers or the enviornment,,have you ever seen the supertanker scrap yard in india ,,workers are barefoot , injurys abound ,you get the point.....longliner

[Mychael]

[/quote]could you imagine everyone with a boat in thier yard? I mean how many more idiots do we need out ther that think a cell phone is all they need on board, not to mention the fact they have thier whole family on board, yea cars are one thing boats are another,,,,,,,,loveyaall longliner.[/quote]

I agree totally. Whilst I don't favour powerboats as a hobby myself I have no objection to the boats themselves as such. However I am constantly irritated by the thoughtless behaviour and poor seamanship shown by the powerboat operators near my mooring.
I don't believe you can be quite such an idiot if you sail, inexperienced for sure and a little nieve in your perceptions of your abilities but you need at least some common sense to "sail" a sailboat.
The point I am getting to is that sailboating is not "easy" when compared to motorboating. People these days want "easy" turn the key and go type recreation. So they don't buy sailboats, this keeps the market low and the costs high.
People will pay more and get less (in terms of length & facilities) in a power boat to what they would get for the same amount of money in a sailboat. Still they will spend the money on powerboats. So I reckon whilst cost certainly has an impact it's the buyer trends the keep demand for sailboats low.

Mychael

[Mychael]

Originally Posted by longliner45

,,have you ever seen the supertanker scrap yard in india ,,workers are barefoot , injurys abound ,you get the point.....longliner

Excuse me for my ignorance but when I see remarks like that (and I know it would be those sort of working conditions) I still wonder why individuals in those situations never make the observation like " hmm xxx got hurt when he cut his foot" "Maybe I should try to put something on my feet so I don't get hurt".

Mychael

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by rayk

How about cheap boats made in China or India for sale at half the cost of present models?

Enough room in marinas for these boats?

Want to go sailing out of sight of land in one of those things?

Will a cheap boat be capable of a refit or ready for a land fill in twenty years?

Hmmmm....

The problem is that no one seems to realize the importance of adapting manufacturing goals with the skill set available.

You can't build high end, high tech sailing boats in developing countries and expect a good result, the work force skills, management skills, quality control and infrastructure is simply not there. But you could build overdimensioned solid low tech fibre glass boats and export to the US and sell for half the price of the average competitor. Build them like a tank and they will last, they will go around the world too.

Question is : Who would want one?

Mikey

[Mychael]

A guy I know owns a Nicholson. Solid glass construction..His comments, "she's heavy and not really quick, but I know she's strong and that's what I want". Works for me.

Mychael

[rayk]

Originally Posted by Mikey

....But you could build overdimensioned solid low tech fibre glass boats and export to the US and sell for half the price of the average competitor. Build them like a tank and they will last, they will go around the world too.

Question is : Who would want one?

Mikey

On second thought, I would like one.
Fixing up an old boat for an ocean passage is bloody hard work.

Wing don fau.

[Mikey]

Ssssch, don't tell them or maybe the US market will be swamped with $150,000 50 footers built like Russian 2nd World war tanks, big, heavy, slow, simple and undestructable, ugly... cheap...

[bobothehobo]

Originally Posted by Mikey

The problem is that no one seems to realize the importance of adapting manufacturing goals with the skill set available.

You can't build high end, high tech sailing boats in developing countries and expect a good result, the work force skills, management skills, quality control and infrastructure is simply not there.

Mikey

Not true. With the proper management team this can work. For examples, see McConaghy's facilitiy in China as well as Green Marine's facility (composite marine) in Thailand.

[Mikey]

bobothehobo, I have lived for 15 years in Thailand by now, if you have lived more than 10 years outside a developed country, then let's discuss otherwise please trust me, that is not the way to benefit from a developing country

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Mychael

I still wonder why individuals in those situations never make the observation like " hmm xxx got hurt when he cut his foot" "Maybe I should try to put something on my feet so I don't get hurt".

Mychael

Partly that attititude is because they can't afford shoes (compared to other things that are more necessary for them and their families), partly because they could never afford any so they aren't used to wearing them, they are so uncomfortable... partly because Asians live more in the present and simply don't like to think about negative things

Mikey

[Mychael]

Well I certainly know very little about the Asian mindset and I can understand the cost issue and the need for things like food etc.. I would not have thought a bit of self preservation was a "negative thing" however. In fact I would have thought protecting yourself was a positive thing.. Still that's just me.

Mychael