Sailboats are evil...

[Thunderhead19]

Here's a good one. I visited a yard once that had a 60' sailboat blocked up in one of their sheds. On closer inspection she was a sleek looking thing, and had very advanced build techniques, and materials. Honecomb decks, caron fiber practically everywhere. The owner had just bought it to use as his private cuising boat. He wanted some of the small defects repaired. I talked to the manager and he told me that the boat had been raced hard for several years and was completely fatigued out. The honecomb decks were de-laminating. Once the yard got her opened up, it turned out to be a complete nightmare. But the owner insisted that they fix her up (inexpensively) and get her back in the water. What the Bloody-he__ is wrong with people.

[gonzo]

There's nothing wrong with people. Most react amiably to good manners and angrily to insults and sarcasm. I have no problem building a floating condo. It is a job with specifications different from my tastes. However, I have the skills to do it. Why is one kind of floatin supposed to make people superior to others? I sail, powerboat, surf, row, windsurf, swim, dive, and do anything in the water; it's all fun.

[Thunderhead19]

I forget often that I am really a nobody in design circles, and that my experience is limited. Vodka doesn't help. Sometimes I stir the pot to get the real benefit of other peoples experience. When people tell me I'm being ignorant, they usually take the time to educate me. It's not a very good idea I guess. Nobody HAS to react angrily to insults and sarcasm. In fact how they react can be quite telling of a persons character. There's some really good people here. It seems to have really brought the personalities out. There's a lot I can learn from sailboats, and I would like to know more about the "sail" culture. My problems are not with the "sail" culture, or the powerboat culture though, but with the "baubles and bows" culture. People who have boats so they can brag to their friends that they have a boat. (Bearing in mind that I'm not my own boss). Their requirements are sometimes mutually exclusive. Then I get sad, and out comes the Vodka again.

[mackid068]

Large sailboat=economical (aside from original cost); Large powerboat=wasteful

Small sailboat=REALLY ECONOMICAL, really fun; Small powerboat=a helluva lotta fun

[tschienque]

Originally Posted by Thunderhead19

I forget often that I am really a nobody in design circles, and that my experience is limited. Vodka doesn't help. Sometimes I stir the pot to get the real benefit of other peoples experience. When people tell me I'm being ignorant, they usually take the time to educate me. It's not a very good idea I guess. Nobody HAS to react angrily to insults and sarcasm. In fact how they react can be quite telling of a persons character. There's some really good people here. It seems to have really brought the personalities out. There's a lot I can learn from sailboats, and I would like to know more about the "sail" culture. My problems are not with the "sail" culture, or the powerboat culture though, but with the "baubles and bows" culture. People who have boats so they can brag to their friends that they have a boat. (Bearing in mind that I'm not my own boss). Their requirements are sometimes mutually exclusive. Then I get sad, and out comes the Vodka again.

Your reliance on vodka suggests us more about yourself than your "observations" of others.
Deliberately provocative people almost always retreat to "I did it to provoke debate" pretty soon after the tide turns against them.
My reaction to assinine initial post was to -

• find out more about the individual
• resolve to avoid individual concerned
• warn others of this persons nature

Apologies if this seems harsh, but you reap what you sow!

BTW
A business principal instilled into me (by IBM) many,many years ago was
Every 4th good referral should lead to new business
Every single bad referral will be conveyed onto (and thus turn off) 7 potential customers (this number is probably way higher with advent of e-communication).



Not great advertising of yourself or your business in my book

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Thunderhead19

Here's a good one. I visited a yard once that had a 60' sailboat blocked up in one of their sheds. On closer inspection she was a sleek looking thing, and had very advanced build techniques, and materials. Honecomb decks, caron fiber practically everywhere. The owner had just bought it to use as his private cuising boat. He wanted some of the small defects repaired. I talked to the manager and he told me that the boat had been raced hard for several years and was completely fatigued out. The honecomb decks were de-laminating. Once the yard got her opened up, it turned out to be a complete nightmare. But the owner insisted that they fix her up (inexpensively) and get her back in the water. What the Bloody-he__ is wrong with people.

I guess there's a little 'get something for nothin' or next to nothin' in all of us.
I once boaght a 27ft sailboat for $700. That was before I discoverd it was sinking. Turned out that the entire keelson was rotted out and the cast iron keel would have to be removed to fix it. The esimate for the repair was $1800 (in 1970's money). I got them started, but ran out of money. Now that I think about it, I wish I had been able to stick it out. But I think that's part of the problem. People can get unrealistic expectations on the true cost of 'yachting'.

Me and people of my ilk would be better served with sailboat rentals. I even have a preliminary design for such a boat. It would be more on workboat lines, built for hard use, relatively cheap, seaworthy, and unsinkable.

On another note. Racing boats have become, in my opinion, way too specialized. Especilly in the sailing community. Poorer folks, I mean people who aren't rock stars or CEO's, used to be able to count on a sort of 'hand me down' effect. That is being able to buy 'previously owned' vessels and count on them being in useable condition. Modern racing trends have seemingly led up to the 'throw away gold plater' mentality. Most rating rules were originally designed to discourage such practices.
In the sailing community, this is very important. And this is so for two reasons: one, that a primary use of sail boats is racing, and two, that 'cruising' boats tend, over time, to resemble racing boats.
And the lack of realistic fundemental safety rules in some grand prix 'offshore' races would make the average formula 1 or NASCAR racer cringe. Imagine, no requirement to make the boats unsinkable even though it is easily technically feasable. That would be like not requiring blotter tanks and roll cages in auto racing.

And it's a damned shame.

As to your dilema, I would suggest you tell the new owner the true state of the vessel and, after doing so, offer to 'do what you can' for it. The only stipulation would be that the owner sign a waiver that clearly states the boat's worst faults and what can and cannot be fixed for the agreed upon price. The waiver could also state that, in your opinion, the boat will not be sea worthy even after the repairs are made. This may not be the owner 'signing his rights away', but I think it would go a long way in court if he should ever decide to sue you later.

Bob

[mackid068]

Hear, hear Bob!

[globaldude]

Woa !! , tooo harsh on Thunderhead 19, at least he speaks his mind & at most encourages us to do the same. I'd bet he hasn't a problem with his mate mr Vodka, it's just boys talk .
I enjoy your thoughts & sarchasim thunderhead-ache [ the vodka? ].
Keep it up, " in fact, how they react says something about their character "
Too true, too true, tschienque is point & case.

[gonzo]

sarpii2:
Racing formulas were not made to keep poor people competitive. Money, since the start of racing, has given owners an edge. Some boat classes, like Snipes, Laser, 470, can be raced somewhat inexpensively. However, racing in not cheap. If you are not willing to sail your boat to the point of breaking, those who are will get ahead. Racing boats in the past were even more specialized than now; J class for example.

[LP]

Thunderhead,

You had me going at the start. Had me thinking, "This guy is a real bozo." You really had the ol' Martini shaker stirred up. I'm not much on "sail culture," but I do enjoy the challenge and the magic moments of sailing. I have a 16' unballasted wood, glass and epoxy sailboat that I've built myself. She's a little tender and likes to take a reef when the winds are over 14 kts, but she responds beautifully, is extremely maneuverable and utilizes nothing but the power of the wind.

Just a few evenings ago, we opted to take a short family sail at an area lake. It was 4th of July weekend with all the attendant crowds of a holiday weekend. We figured most boaters that were at the lake for the weekend would be boated out for the day by the time that we arrived. An expectation that proved to be correct. The wind was higher that expected, so a reef was added before we launched. In tacking out of the inlet, we were met with 1-1 1/2 ft waves, a few small whitecaps and the mental satifaction of knowing that the decision to reef was a good one.

There were clouds to the west that blocked the late afternoon/evening sun and eased the 90 degree temperatures that were prevalent earlier in the day. We would occassionally crash through a wave that would send a cooling spray back to the cockpit and make my girls squeal with delight. My own delight would come at the smooth completion of a tack with the sails reset for the new heading and just comparing all of the many varying elements involved in making my little ship move ahead in it's new direction.

An hour into the evening, the wind abated a little and steadied at 10-12 kts. My girls were a little chill at this point, so they went forward into the cuddy and busied themselves about their own business. I too slid a little forward to put my arm around my lovely bride as she was a bit chill also. I'm guessing the temperature was still in the low to mid 80's, but with the combination of clouds, a constant breeze and a little bit of water, what would have normally been a sultry summer evening became a cool summer evening in a grand concert of wind, water and sky.

It was one of those magical moments that makes a person savor every breath. Hopefully, I didn't wax too poetic. So, to guy that says, "Sailboats are evil.", (Or was it sailboaters?) I raise my martini to you in toast and say, "God bless the open-mined people of the world."

Care to start a thread about personal water craft? lol

learpilot

[Mark 42]

Originally Posted by Bidule P.Q.

You know, this thing people have about being better than the next person because he/she is not in the same group, is only the expression of one's fear...
Take United Staters for example, ...

You did a fine job of demonstrating your own point and displaying your ignorance as well.

[cyclops]

Stink against wind. Life jacket and oars.