Sail Rigs

[john.G]

I'm a reasonably experienced seaman, but I've have little experience under sail. Thanks to a change of direction in my life (read divorce) I now find myself contemplating building a large cruising sailboat probably around 45 foot LWL.

So what I'm hoping some of you wonderfully experienced sailors would do for me is give me the pro's and con's of different rigs. I'm particularly interested in ketch and schooner rigs and the staysail versions of both, although I'm open to ideas.

The rig has to be able to be handled by two people (one in a pinch).

Thanks
John

[Hunter25]

Rigs like a ketch or schooner, breaks down the total sail area into manageable sizes. Sizes that may be too big for the average crew to handle. A 45' yacht will not have this need and would fit under the ICW bridge limit, so coastal cruising would be handy with a single mast.

The divided rigs are romantic, but usually require more crew, certainly more equipment and expense to own.

A well thought out ketch can be very easy to handle, but many things are skipper oriented. This means the person sailing the boat sets it up as they find convenient. This requires experience with the rig type.

Everyone sets up their boat a little different from the next, changes are based on their experience and budget.

The sloop and cutter rigs are the easiest to handle and own, if for no other reason then they have less to break or repair.

All the rigs can be setup to self tend, but this does limit their abilities to a degree, for the benefit of easier or short handed sailing.

I think the ketch is the best dedicated cruising rig, if you can justify the additional rig costs. There are a number of sail hoist and reefing options with them. The yawl would be next, for similar reasons, followed by the cutter and sloop. The modern schooner can be pretty easy to sail, but has inherent flaws preventing it from performing well to windward. The traditional schooner is the one Americans would love to own, until they have had to work one. It is a beautiful rig, but not real practical without a sizable crew, able to take advantage of its abilities.

A good rule of thumb in a cruiser is go simple. You will have less equipment failures, fewer spars to varnish or paint, less bits of rigging to inspect. You only need one head. If you can not walk from the aft cabin to the forepeak head, then you really need be ashore or in diapers.

In the end, I would recommend the sloop or cutter, for the novice cruising sailor. The sloops two sails will keep you busy enough learning how to adjust things without the hassle of extra sails, rigging and masts to worry about. This is partly why you see so many sloops and cutters around.

[SeaSpark]

My choise would be a sloop.

The ketch and schooner have the disadvantage of much weight aloft and more complicated sail handling. Realise that 1kg 10m up the mast requires 10kg at 1m deep in the keel too keep the same righting moment. The extra mast gives extra wind resistance limiting upwind performance. Modern sail handling systems allow handling the sail area for a 45ft sloop.

The cutter rig is also a good choise it provides the possibility of carrying only a small headsail in strong wind conditions. In most cases it does give the added compexity of running backstays. And the cutter stay is in the way when tacking the genua. A removable cutter stay is a good option.

[john.G]

Thanks for your help so far.

To be more specific, the vessel I envisage would be 45 - 50 foot waterline length. Overall length would be 55 foot or so. So divided rig would be necessary to manage the sails easily shorthanded.

I would use a cutter rig on the foremast/main with reefing furlers. Main would be fully battened with three reefs. Fisherman topsail for light airs.

What I'm really chasing is a comparison of ketch vs staysail schooner. I have no experience with either rig.

Thanks
John

[SeaSpark]

sorry, missed the LWL in "45 foot LWL" in your question.

I agree that a sloop rig for a boat 45ft on the waterline results in hard to handle sail areas. In my opinion 45ft overall is a sort of limit for a sloop with a smal crew. When ease of handling is important to you you may consider that on a ketch the headsails are still very big compared to a staysail schooner.

[Hunter25]

I will still stand on the recommendation for the sloop or cutter with a short handed/solo crew and beginning sailors.

The ketch will be closer winded then the schooner and easier to handle. Back wind from the mizzen always annoyed me on ketches with the cockpit placed just so. Unless you get one of the very modern interpretations of the schooner, with masts of equal height, the performance may not be what you want. "A schooner is a cutter with a mast in the middle of the fore triangle"

If you are decided on a divided rig, the ketch or yawl is the ticket. Both of these can hang a staysail from the mizzen, opening up good speed potential when the sheets are cracked off. The ketch usually has the mizzen in the cockpit, making life more difficult there. The yawl is much more like a sloop or cutter with a small mizzen, that is generally not in the cockpit, so down drafts and elbow room are not problems. The yawl will be closer winded then the other divided rigs.

Ultimately you will need to gain some experience on a ketch and the other rigs to make a reasonably informed decision. Rent a bare boat for a week. Borrow a friends sloop. Beg you boss for a weekend on his double mast ride. It will take many hours on all the rigs to gain the information you are asking for.

Each rig has it virtues and draw backs. Only you, the type of sailing you will do and your crew will be able to submit to a rig selection. Think of it as asking for opinions on which car to buy, because you are about to get your first one. From your parents point of view, they wish you to get an old beater, which can be abused, banged into things and repeatedly repaired as you learn. This will get traded up for a better one as your skill and confidence level rises. This is the case with yachts. Most start with a small used boat and work up until they have bought too big a boat. By then they have a very good idea what they want in a boat and shop for the perfect yacht that fits their skill and needs. I do not know of any short cuts to this process.

[FAST FRED]

Schooners are for romantics that motor to windward, or sail on a deep beam reach forever.

The doubble headsail cutter (all inboard) would be choice for going someplace.

FAST FRED

[Milan]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

Schooners are for romantics...FAST FRED

Well, most of them are, but there are exemptions. What do you think of these?

[mmd]

I guess I'd better tell my buddy Tom Gallant that his traditional Tancook schooner is a poor cruising boat. He's about to set sail for the Caribbean from Nova Scotia for the fourth or fifth time, after having cruised Avenger for some 50,000 miles, usually with a crew of two or three and occasionally solo.

There a lot more things to consider in a boat's rig than the ability to point a few degrees more to windward. When you are a hundred miles from shelter and can't avoid the fifty-knot gale that is bearing down on you, how will your sloop balance when you're triple-reefed and flying a handkerchief of a jib to try to maintain steerage? Schooners offer some distinct advantages in their flexibility of sailplan and seaworthiness in nasty weather.

At least, that's my humble opinion. But I'm probably biased due to my location and heritage.

[SailDesign]

Fast Fred - tell that to the generations of trading schooner and fishing schooner skippers and owners who gained a good living from the sea well before motors hit the scene.
Steve

[Wellydeckhand]

I do agree and see lot of schooner rig used by local. They are trustworthy in their way.

WDH

[Eric Sponberg]

John G.,

You might want to consider my Globetrotter 45 which you can see on my website at http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm.

Eric

[Wellydeckhand]

Eric,

That is a beautiful boat do you have anything 60 above with junk rig?

WDH

[FAST FRED]

tell that to the generations of trading schooner and fishing schooner skippers and owners who gained a good living from the sea well before motors hit the scene.

There is a VAST difference between sitting riding out a gale on the Grand Banks, going nowhere , just staying alive , with a large experienced crew to help keep the boat intact.

Most of the offshore cruising I have done was NOT to sit in place till there was no more room for dead fish , but to actually go someplace.

A storm is a storm , most seaworthy boats can handle a storm, but weather you are stopped dead in your tracks or slowly progressing to some destination does make a difference.

Most cruisers study the weather patterns and the mantra "only Fools or Yachtsman beat to weather" is certainly a religion with the yachties.

Schooners need to be of a really good size 45 to 60 ft to make them worthwhile. Much smaller is a joke.

Yes the pivcture posted was a fine boat , but how many times have you set flying sails?

A mizzen staysail on a klunky ketch will be at least as big as the main , usually bigger.

Like spinakers , there for the hardier set , as retriving them in a blow can be more than fun, almost work!

AT 45lwl a schooner would certainly make a fine world cruiser .But if it needs flying sails to get to hull speed , its gona take an enthustiac crew.

FAST FRED

[SailDesign]

Fred, Fast or otherwise,
My point was that schooners with no engines have been sailing successfully for years.
"Much smaller is a joke" - see attached pic (which is no joke)
Steve