Sail Rigs

[Eric Sponberg]

WDH,

Thanks for the compliment. No, I don't have any stock plans at 60 ft+, but I could certainly design a suitable yacht on a custom basis. I am not a fan of junk rigs--perhaps they are relatively easy to sail, but they are terrible aerodynamically. A plain, non-rotating free-standing rig would be much better than a junk rig.

Eric

[Milan]

"…if it needs flying sails to get to hull speed , its gona take an enthustiac crew…."

That black schooner with flying sails is very light plywood boat. Quite narrow (length / beam about 1:4). Very easily driving hull with plenty of sail area for her displacement and wetted area. She doesn 't have any trouble at all reaching hull speed with just working sails, if there is any wind. With flying sails set, she just flies.

Boat with two red asymmetric spinnakers is Dashew's Beowulf. At 80ft she was until recently sailed by a couple in their sixties.

Two mast configuration works best with narrow boats. They don't have a lot of form stability so you have two options - one tall mast and very deep fin, or sail area divided on two shorter masts with a less heeling force and normal draft. Of these two, boat with a divided rig will be easier to handle, including flying sails, as they are smaller then flying sails of the sloop or cutter, and mizzen flying sails are quite easy to deal with, being situated in the middle of the boat where motion isn't too bad and there is plenty of deck space

[john.G]

One of the ideas I have is to have the fisherman topsail on an in mast furler.
It's a big sail, and only gets used in light weather anyway. Most divided rigs run without one and I've always figured that the size and akward position was why.

One of the interesting things I've recently learnt was that schooners were uncommon in the pacific, or the south pacific anyway. While the vessels were called schooners and the masts and sails were named accordingly they were in fact ketchs based on mast size and location. If all those old time commercial boats that were run by old time crusty sailors in this region were ketchs they must have done so for a reason.

[FAST FRED]

"If all those old time commercial boats that were run by old time crusty sailors in this region were ketchs they must have done so for a reason."



They did,, the mizzen on a ketch is a fine place to lean while taking a sextant shot.

"That black schooner with flying sails is very light plywood boat. Quite narrow (length / beam about 1:4). Very easily driving hull with plenty of sail area for her displacement and wetted area. She doesn 't have any trouble at all reaching hull speed with just working sails, if there is any wind. With flying sails set, she just flies."

THE WAY TO GO!!! ,if you can handle the slightly reduced accomidations and load carring ability from the usual box boats.

Light , Long & Lean is the way , but light gets expensive fast if carried too far.

FAST FRED

[CT 249]

By the way, the "long black boat" was also later re-rigged as a ketch, after the rating rule changed, and was still extremely fast and very succesful.

It seems to have been a great boat either way, and I'm not attacking schooner rigs. But part of the reason they were used early on for racing was that their sail area was rated very low, compared to a sloop. As soon as that advantage was reduced, they were dumped by some of those who favoured them for racing.

Of course, they may still make great cruising rigs, and they look cool, and dammit I want one. But the "long black boat" (for all her success) may not necessarily be a good advertisement for the sheer speed of schooners.

I still want her in my christmas stocking, re-rigged to a schooner.

[Milan]

Originally Posted by Fast Fred

Light , Long & Lean…THE WAY TO GO!!! .

I agree I'm a fan of that concept.

Originally Posted by CT 249

By the way, the "long black boat" was also later re-rigged as a ketch, after the rating rule changed, and was still extremely fast and very succesful.

It seems to have been a great boat either way, and I'm not attacking schooner rigs. But part of the reason they were used early on for racing was that their sail area was rated very low, compared to a sloop. As soon as that advantage was reduced, they were dumped by some of those who favoured them for racing.

Of course, they may still make great cruising rigs, and they look cool, and dammit I want one. But the "long black boat" (for all her success) may not necessarily be a good advertisement for the sheer speed of schooners.

I still want her in my christmas stocking, re-rigged to a schooner.

There is a big difference between traditional and modern schooners. Traditional schooner had most of her sail area on the aft mast and relatively small sail on the front mast. That configuration was especially handy for large coasters. They anchored frequently and sailed with a small crew. Largest sail area could be hoisted first and lowered last keeping the ship under control, holding the bow to the wind. During the moderate weather biggest sail could be left standing at anchor. (Furling was a lot of work).

Schooner is less efficient to windward then ketch because fore sails spoil airflow on the main sail.

But modern light boats are different story. If the boat is really narrow on the waterline, lets say length / beam = 1 /4 to 1 /5 then masts are relatively far apart (air flow less disturbed), and can be of similar size. Slight differences in the height in either direction, ketch or schooner, make a little difference in the performance. As you sad Pen Duick II later got ketch rig but with her younger sister E. Tabarly reversed the trend somewhat. Pen Duick III, although technically could be called ketch has masts of very similar height.

For cruising boat is very sensible to divide sail area in two equal parts, as sail handling is easier that way, as biggest individual sails will be smaller, especially flying sails.

Pen Duick III in Rotterdam last week.

[jack wicks]

Hi I.m a new member. I work in the aluminum jet boat industry, but I'm like a fish out of water, sailboats are my real love,. Yes , I must be a romantic nut because I've wanted to build a small schooner all my life. What is the design name of the small schooner shown? The Tancook Whaler sounds very impressive from what I've read,, I'm tired of overlapping sails, etc. Didn't Peter Van Dyne make some copies of the Tancook whaler? Help.

[jack wicks]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

Fred, Fast or otherwise,
My point was that schooners with no engines have been sailing successfully for years.
"Much smaller is a joke" - see attached pic (which is no joke)
Steve

Hi Steve, I agree completly. Is that a Tancook Waler in the thumbnail print? If so what size? ( Schooners will always catch my eye ).

[FAST FRED]

The real point is for a begining sailor , how much sail is "too much " sail for one person.

The only way to get any rest on an offshore passage is if the boat can be easily handeled SINGLEHANDED, so the off watch can usually be OFF!

A main of about 300sq ft with slab reefing seems fine to this mid 60 year old , and my 100lb bride too.400 might be OK.

Sure the rolling window shade thingies work, bit at great price .

Many are on the go fast stunt boats where budget , and mere HUGE size makes for a rapid passage.

To my mind the ability for ONE crew to handle almost every wind change seems a realistic goal.

Small sails equals skinny easy to push boat for a cruiser, unfortunatly this costs more $$$.

FAST FRED

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Hunter25

...I think the ketch is the best dedicated cruising rig, if you can justify the additional rig costs. There are a number of sail hoist and reefing options with them.

Originally Posted by SeaSpark

...The cutter rig is also a good choise it provides the possibility of carrying only a small headsail in strong wind conditions.

Originally Posted by John G

To be more specific, the vessel I envisage would be 45 - 50 foot waterline length. Overall length would be 55 foot or so. So divided rig would be necessary to manage the sails easily shorthanded.

I would use a cutter rig on the foremast/main with reefing furlers. Main would be fully battened with three reefs.

What I'm really chasing is a comparison of ketch vs staysail schooner

Originally Posted by SeaSpark

...In my opinion 45ft overall is a sort of limit for a sloop with a smal crew

Originally Posted by FastFred

...The doubble headsail cutter (all inboard) would be choice for going someplace

Of course it was going to be tough resisting to inject my 'single-masted ketch' concept....just food for thought as it does appear as though many persons here like the ketch and cutter configurations as a cruising rig.
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=623

...or how about another interesting cruising rig done up for a handicapped older navy gentleman
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/articles/othermansboat1.html


Taken to another step in cruising, how about a twin keeled vessel for cruising??
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5315