Question about wooden boats please!

[MarioCoccon]

Hi: Everybody, MarioCoccon again with his ideas ahhh, finally I have an option of buy a Wooden sailboat. I dont like the idea of wooden for (rotten, worms, collisions etc) this boat is currently out of the water. Now I here a couple o time of people that cover all the haul with fiber glass and leave only the interior in wooden. This is appropiate?, how much weight and tick I need? maybe 1/4 of fiber, what resin use epoxy or poliester? and the more important how much time during this cover without start delaminating from the wood. Please let me know soon this boat it not will to longer for sale is a Pilothouse pretty sailboat. Thanks to everyone.

[hansp77]

Hello Mario
just a question.
Why do you want to cover the hull in fiberglass?
From what I have learned, this is not necessarily the thing to do to an old boat. It seems to be a last ditch effort to get a few more years out of a near-dead boat.
If the boat looks good now, with no rot, then just keep it goin like it has been.
the problem is that sheathing it covers up any rot that may be present, sealing it in unknown, and when it cracks it lets in water to start rot in places you cannot know about. Then it is very difficult to repair.

Not to put down modern materials, but wood is actually quite a good boat building material.
You just have to keep on top of things.
Cut out rot, and maintain.

If you really do want to glass, then as far as I know, epoxy would be the way to go. Epoxy mylar sheathing maybe?? Someone else will surely tell you.
I don't know.

When you say wooden, do you mean timber or ply?
Also, how long has the boat been out of the water?
Too long is no good as it will have dried out and shrunken. Have they kept water in the bilges?

Although I have always been drawn to them, I didn't really want a wooden boat for the same reasons you say, but ended up buying one anyway.
Sure enough I found more rot than I expected.
But I love the boat.
I wouldn't have it anyother way.
While wood has its disadvantages,
it certainly has its advantages and charm.

How big and what design is this boat?
Do you have photo's?
what condition is it in?
About the condition, are you sure???

Best luck
Hans.

[Seafarer24]

Mario- they don't just fiberglass directly over the wooden hull.

Typically:
The hull is pulled out of the water, scraped, and allowed to dry out for a few months. A very thorough inspection for rot is done and any that is found is replaced. Then the hull is cold-molded with thin veneers epoxy-bonded to it, at least two layers laid double-diagonally.

Very great care must be taken not to let fresh water collect in the bilge, as this will cause the hull to rot from the inside-out with no exterior visual clues as to what is happening.

It could be cheaper to buy a fiberglass boat than to sheath a wooden one. Much less headache for sure.

[MarioCoccon]

Hi and thanks for reply me, The reason is because I dont like the idea of a loose wooden plank getting water to the boat, second I saw like a black glue in the bottom that came from the inside, looks like some try to stop a leak, third I think he could live forever if I convert him with fiber because the wood feels very solid. And I like the idea if someday I hit the bottom with something hard in the haul was more protected that occurs me in a C&C 35 we hit a reef at 6knts and only a crack and scracht in the haul nothing serious. But imagine that we a wooden boat maybe a couple of plank can loosed from the ribs. The boat was sit out of the water for one year herein Puerto Rico "Caribbean" what is that about water in the bilge thats good or bad? The owner dont know the model just like he was buil in the end of 50 middle of 60, looks very very similar to the Pearson 36 Pilot House but in 27 feet. Photos no I dont have but I will try to find some similar in the internet. If another one can tell me more about cover him, products and steps. Thanks again. Mario

Originally Posted by hansp77

Hello Mario
just a question.
Why do you want to cover the hull in fiberglass?
From what I have learned, this is not necessarily the thing to do to an old boat. It seems to be a last ditch effort to get a few more years out of a near-dead boat.
If the boat looks good now, with no rot, then just keep it goin like it has been.
the problem is that sheathing it covers up any rot that may be present, sealing it in unknown, and when it cracks it lets in water to start rot in places you cannot know about. Then it is very difficult to repair.

Not to put down modern materials, but wood is actually quite a good boat building material.
You just have to keep on top of things.
Cut out rot, and maintain.

If you really do want to glass, then as far as I know, epoxy would be the way to go. Epoxy mylar sheathing maybe?? Someone else will surely tell you.
I don't know.

When you say wooden, do you mean timber or ply?
Also, how long has the boat been out of the water?
Too long is no good as it will have dried out and shrunken. Have they kept water in the bilges?

Although I have always been drawn to them, I didn't really want a wooden boat for the same reasons you say, but ended up buying one anyway.
Sure enough I found more rot than I expected.
But I love the boat.
I wouldn't have it anyother way.
While wood has its disadvantages,
it certainly has its advantages and charm.

How big and what design is this boat?
Do you have photo's?
what condition is it in?
About the condition, are you sure???

Best luck
Hans.

[MarioCoccon]

Hi: Seafarer, my wife toll me the same we have a Columbia 39 for sale and a Newport 27 in restauration for three years but a like pilot house, what is that about cold molded (like barrier kote??) and that thing of fresh water can I seal the inside with something too like resin, or glue or fiber too. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Seafarer24

Mario- they don't just fiberglass directly over the wooden hull.

Typically:
The hull is pulled out of the water, scraped, and allowed to dry out for a few months. A very thorough inspection for rot is done and any that is found is replaced. Then the hull is cold-molded with thin veneers epoxy-bonded to it, at least two layers laid double-diagonally.

Very great care must be taken not to let fresh water collect in the bilge, as this will cause the hull to rot from the inside-out with no exterior visual clues as to what is happening.

It could be cheaper to buy a fiberglass boat than to sheath a wooden one. Much less headache for sure.

[gggGuest]

The problem with glass sheathing is that you have to keep it in really first class order in order to stop water getting in, in which case things get ten times worse. I concur with the guy who suggests that its a last resort to get a few more years out of a scrapper.

You tend to end up with a boat that combines the worst features of both a wood boat and a glass fibre one.

[Guillermo]

Mario,
You have a nicely priced Banjer 37 for sale in Puerto Rico....
Have a look at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/trading.htm

[hansp77]

Originally Posted by MarioCoccon

what is that about water in the bilge thats good or bad?

As far as I understand it,
salty water in the bilge is good, it will keep the wood swelled up, and if salty enough stop any rot,
and like seafarer24 said, fresh water is bad.
Fresh water anywhere on or in the wooden boat is bad.
I have heard it somewhere that very old wooden boats and ships used to have special holes in them that would be filled with rock salt. When it would disolved down into the bilges they would keep it filled up from the top.

Is this boat of clinker construction?

Someone who really knows should back me up on this, but, I think that because it has been out of the water so long the wood will have shrunken. You might have to sink it before you float it!


It does sounds intersting. Probably a survey would be a good thing though.

[Seafarer24]

The "black goo" you see seaping out may be tar. Tar was (maybe still is?) commonly laid in the bilge of wooden boats to help prevent leaks and keep fresh water off the wood. Hemp rope soaked in tar was hammered into the seams between the planks for the same reason.

You'd have to look up "cold molding" on Google.com to get a better description (maybe pictures) than I can write in a simple post.

Now- a little story about a wooden boat with a glass sheath:
I went to Miami to check out a 1950s Brazilian-built 38' wooden racing sloop. The current owner had stripped the boat to the hull, replaced any rotted wood and cold-molded it with mahogany veneers and epoxy. The hull was very fair and fine looking. He'd changed it into a cutter and put a big aluminum mast in it, stepped on the keel. As it sat at the dock the mast-boot dry-rotted in about a year (common in Miami when not maintained) and allowed water to run down the mast into the bilge. He got about 6" of water in the bilge from this rather small, slow leak and lack of attention. It rotted away the mast-step and the garboards. The hull didn't leak at all, but this was a very serious structural problem and the fiberglass sheath would make repairs even more difficult. He put the boat up for sale at a huge loss, and in the end I believe he had to send it to the wreckers and sell the mast, rigging, bronze portholes, etc. to get any money out of it.

[Ike]

First off this thread is talking about two different procedures. One is encasing the outside of the hull in fiberglass. Very Bad!

The other is cold moulding, that is. laying thin veneers of wood diagonally over the existing hull. Very Good.

Fiberglassing a wooden boat is a really a bad idea for several reasons. The first is that wood is a dynamic material. It expands and contracts. Fiberglass is not. To effectively glass over wood you have to get an excellent mechanical and chemical bond between the wood and the glass fabric, something that is nearly impossible to do, (I've even seen people use staples in the glass to do this) and even if done correctly the first bump, crunch, freeze, or any other thing that makes the wood flex, shrink or expand is going to damage the bond. Moisture in the air can make wood expand. Eventually, over time the bond detiorates and moisture (not necessarily flowing water, just mositure) gets between the glass and the hull and the process of rot begins. But it is hidden away and you can't see it until it is too late.

Secondly, fiberglass is a semi-permeable membrane, if you remember from your high school chem class what that is. Water actually migrates through fiberglass. It does so very slowly in miniscule amounts but over time this becomes a problem.

I have direct experience with three wooden boats that were fiberglassed over, a 13 foot OK Dinghy, a 17 foot thistle, and a 130 foot wooden minesweeper. All three hulls developed problems. The OK is now sitting on a hillside and most of the wood is rotten and it still has a nice fiberglass skin. The Thistle I bought for $300 (plus trailer) from a guy who let it sit in the lake collecting water. It started to rot so he glassed it, and the rot got worse. I ground all the glass off it, replaced the entire stem and keel, some of the veneers (it is cold moulded), part of the center board trunk, the wood portion of the centerboard, and as far as I know it is still sailing. It was built in 1948.

I worked on a navy contract building wood minesweepers. Some idiot in the design process specified glassing the cold moulded wood hulls. The first time they set off an explosive charge in the water nearby to test the hull they cracked the glass at the keel. It had to be drydocked and reglassed. They sent these things to the Persian gulf where the water is really really warm. To make a long story short they have problems with these hulls but as usual with the Navy they haven't changed a thing!

Adding veneers to a wood hull is a great idea and has been done effectively numerous times to save a badly detiorating wood hull. It is a simple process, strengthens the wood, actually makes the boat float higher on its lines and is a thing of beauty. It takes a bit of work because the hull has to be sanded smooth, and works well with round chined boats. I've not seen it done with lapstrake or hard chine hulls. I imagine it could be done but would take a bit more to make it work.

[Ike]

I need to learn to spell deteriorating!

[MarioCoccon]

Hi and thanks to everyone, thanks for all the reply, looks that a problem more than a job, i think is better finish my newport when I sell my Columbia. Thanks again.

[sronicker]

I know everyone that has replied has alot more experience and probably more knowledge as well but I wanted to put in my two cents anyways...

there is a method of building canoes and kayaks of cedar strips then fiberglassing both the outside and the inside of the wood. It is a bit difficult especially at the gunwhale. may favorite site for these designs is http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ they have all different lengths and styles.

I have been thinking about trying my hand at building either a kayak or canoe with this style of fiberglassing and I have wondered if it not a bad idea for (probably would only work on smaller boats) building a small wooden sailboat.

[sronicker]

also the book "Building a Strip Canoe" by Gil Gilpatrick goes into some serious details about how to fiberglass a wooden canoe hull

[Gilbert]

No one has mentioned that there may be nothing at all wrong with this wooden boat. If so there is no need to either fiberglass it or put cold molded veneers over the hull. If you don't know how to tell if it is good or not you should have it surveyed and then you will know what its condition is. It may need nothing more than some soaking and maybe some fresh antifouling paint to bring it back to seaworthy condition.