Pocket cruising boats

Thanks for the input on your last boat, Peter. A pity you do not have images from her. Force 10 in a 25 footer is quite a lot of it! (Both weather and boat )
About the image from the new one, I'm not able to make it bigger, to better see details....

 

boat

you can see many images of our boat The Dolphin on the Newhaven Web Site nys.com.au

 

The Flicka has a good reputation, and kind of on the other end of the spectrum, the Nor'Sea 27 also does. These two boats are very much of the same style, the Flicka is quite a bit smaller, and quite a bit cheaper!

Also, with respect to seaworthiness, I am glad to see people discussing the roll moment of inertia and so on, but it's worth pointing out that deep keels with bulbs increase this, while decreasing course-keeping abilities. In a seaway, you want a full-keel style of thing, not an appendage with a bulb, for a variety of reasons.

A full keel isn't very deep!

 

I think you are wrong. The Cafe 27 is one of the most exciting little boats that has arrived in the market in the last years. Of course nothing to do with the heavy boats that you have been posting, most of them out of production or with a very marginal market.

This one has been nominated by the test sailors of the six biggest European sailing magazines to the 2006 boat of the year contest. Normally sail magazines have a lot of pressure from the big manufacturers on this contest. It is significant that this boat is made in a very small Czech factory, (that also produces precision musical instruments) and even so it has been nominated. It has to be an interesting boat.

There are a lot of magazines waiting to sail test this boat, so we will have fresh impressions soon.

Meanwhile the boat has already been tested by the German magazine “Yacht”(and some others) and they were really impressed, with everything, including seaworthiness:

(Sorry for the not so good translation)

“The Cafe 27, from a small Czech shipyard is a “grown up boat”... with a love for the detail and its sailing performance is astounding.”

On the water it needs not be afraid of any competition : With most conditions the Café 27 – (the Test boat was the build number one) - is more agile and more pleasant to sail than any other boat in the marina. ... Café 27, is also a correct sea-suited yacht. However despite a width of 2,80 M and a weight of 2,6 tons is still a trailerable boat.

The boat convinces both by its comparatively agile behavior as well as by the absolute speed. ... the Café 27 stands out as a special boat.”

 

It sounds like some of the design audience would like a shallow full keel (lightish?) boat with a deep centreboard (or daggerboard(s)), no? Kind of a mini Ted Hood design? I've been doodling one of these for years. 28' LOA, una rotating unstayed wing rig, two rudders, with a small bowsprit for many different flying headsails? Kind of an open 30 catboat with a shallow full keel?

Paul

 

That's not exacly what you are talking about, but it is also a shallow water boat. Do you now this one?

It is an interesting boat.

 

Tech forward, and well disguised.

Paul

 

roomy and well design, for a small boat. Can it take rough water? what is it normal speed VEGA?

 

Welly, the boat is relatively seaworthy, but with small light boats, I should emphasize the relatively.

About the speed, this is a small boat and even if it looks fast I would say you should expect a cruising speed around 5 knots.

Here is what an owner says of this boat:

"My First Mate and I currently sail a 2000 Seaward-25, which is built by Hake Yachts in Stuart Florida. The factory is of modest size and visitors are welcome. I always have had good customer support from the factory during regular business hours. The S-25 is 26 feet 9 inches Length Over All (LOA), with 23 feet Length on Waterline (LOW). It displaces 3,600 pounds with a mast height Above Water Line (AWL) of 33 feet. The sail area is 280 square feet. It is available in two different versions. One is a wing keel, shoal draft version that drafts 2 feet. The other is a blue water model that has a fin keel with a bulb that drafts 4 feet 2 inches. We sail the wing keel version."

And a magazine boat test (Sailing Magazine):

http://www.sailnet.com/sailing/00/btjuly00.htm

The boat is a popular one and has lots of fans. They have a site:

http://home.att.net/~seaward25/

More information:

http://www.gunkholemarine.com/straightalk.pdf?
http://www.gunkholemarine.com/faq.html?

And the manufacturer site:

http://www.seawardyachts.com/26rk.html

They have also a 32ft. That one (with a displacement of 8300lbs and a ballast of 2500lbs, in a deep bulb) would have some offshore capacity, at least in good weather and it looks even better than the small one.

This one probably is a 6 knot boat.

 

As I've posted before, I don't remember where, exciting is usually a tricky marketing word I would not apply without fear to proper cruising boats.
She's probably quite exciting for weekend sailing or club regattas, but definetely she's not a boat conceived with extended cruising in mind, in my humble opinion.
From the photos you posted, I find those bilges much inapropriate to avoid the minimum amount of water sloshing around....and also quite weak, if you are unlucky enough to ground or hit a submerged object, a risk we never can expect to be zero when in extended cruisings (Even in short ones!). I've inspected several boats with that kind of flat bottoms arrangement after hitting rocks and other objects, and consequences were quite disatrous. Even with not so strong impacts, structures and hulls were nicely broken.

 

Numbers for the Seaward 26:
(Note: Displacement, as posted by manufacturer, is probably for lightship condition)

LOA = 7,78 m
Lwl = 7,52 m
Bmax = 2,55 m
Bwl = 2,09 m
Draught = 1,83 m (Lifting keel version)
HD = 0,25 m (guessed)
Disp = 1720 kg
Ballast = 545 kg
Sail area = 26 m2
Power = 12 HP (guessed)

Calculated data:

Displacement /Length Ratio D/L = 112,81
Sail Area /Disp. Ratio SA/D = 18,4
Power / Disp. Ratio 6*HP/D = 18,97
Hull speed HSPD = 6,66 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 7,77 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,17
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 2,15 (Well into the unsafe zone)
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 13,79 (Very low. Boat uncomfortable)
Screening Stability Value SSV = 73,12
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 116,34 º

Roll Period T = 1,72 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,19 G's (Intolerable begins at 0,18)
Stability Index SI = 0,67 (Very stiff)

Note: With the addition of 500 kgs of crew and stores, things improve somewhat, probably with CSF under 2, MCR around 18 and the acceleration factor around 0,12, still in the Threshold of Malaise zone, but not so violent.

She looks like a typical Florida's waters nice weather coastal cruiser, much in the line of the Hunter 26 I owned a long time ago (She had a winged keel). Not all weathers-all waters coastal cruisers, in my opinion.

The lifting keel seems quite dangerous to me, specially in the reefy coral-heads waters you find in many locations in the Caribbean. I wouldn't like to hit one of those with all keel down at hull speed...!

 

Pocket cruising boat design competition.

Classic Boats Design Competition
The deadline for entering the CB Design Competition is 31 August 2006. It's your chance to design a handy, seaworthy pocket cruiser, less than 28ft (8.54m) LOA. The winning designs will be published in CB and the overall winner will receive a handmade half model of his/her design.

More info at: http://www.classicboat.co.uk/cb/cb_comp.pdf

 

Another one:
Legend 27: http://www.opalmarine.com/boat.asp?pg=overview&bid=26

Data for the twin keel version:

LH = 8,23 m
Lwl = 7,17 m
Bmax = 3 m
Bwl = 2,46 m
Draught = 1,07 m
HD = 0,4 m (guessed)
Disp = 3470 kg
Ballast = 1170 kg
Sail area = 36 m2
Power = 14 HP

Displacement /Length Ratio D/L = 262,57
Sail Area /Disp. Ratio SA/D = 15,96
Power / Disp. Ratio 6*HP/D = 10,97
Hull speed HSPD = 6,5 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 7,09 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,09
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 2
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 22,73
Screening Stability Value SSV = 58,28
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 118,29 º

Roll Period T = 2,54 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,11 G's
Stability Index SI = 0,85

Not so bad for this kind of 'modern' light cruisers. More acceptable than the Seaward 26, from my point of view. I do not know Design category but, also from my point of view, should be no more than "C"

 

Your opinion is opposite the opinion of the boat testers of Yacht Magazine, and they test hundreds of boats

(the words under the picture can be translated as something like “Strong and well made”).

Of course, they also found the Café 27 “ a correct sea-suited yacht” and that is obviously not your opinion.

Of course you are entitled to have your opinion, but it is obvious that yours is a marginal view, in the sense that it is not the main view of what is a proper 27 ft cruiser, I mean the one that defines the market and that is shared by the specialized press.

Look at this one. I find it a beauty, (probably the nicest on the market) but I know already that you are not going to like its movable keel (that permits it to have a good initial stability and a light weight). But that is what makes it interesting for me, because it permits it to enter small rivers, explore lots of nice shallow waters, nice places, and still be a fast and seaworthy boat.

I guess that what makes the right 27ft cruiser depends on the order of the criteria that are important to each sailor.

http://www.de-gier.nl/createsite/prod/createprod.asp?b_id=6158&page=1&rs_prod_id=3326

 

Absolutely.

Just to better explain you my point of view, let's review one of the boats at my first post in this thread:

NORTHBEACH 24:
http://www.northbeachyachts.nl/eng/nb24.htm

LH = 7,32 m
Lwl = 6,55 m
Bmax = 2,5 m
Bwl = 2,25 m
Draught = 0,85 m
HD = 0,35 m (guessed)
Disp = 2850 kg (Designed. Light: 2600 kg. Maximum recommended: 3350 kg)
Ballast = 1300 kg
Sail area = 33,3 m2
Power = 9 HP

Displacement /Length Ratio D/L = 282,88
Sail Area /Disp. Ratio SA/D = 16,83
Power / Disp. Ratio 6*HP/D = 8,59
Hull speed HSPD = 6,21 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 6,94 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,12
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 1,78
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 26,29
Screening Stability Value SSV = 34,38
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 126,41 º

Roll Period T = 2,56 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,08 G's
Stability Index SI = 1,03

For 3350 kg displacement, numbers are even better (Except AVS, diminishing 3º)

These are what I consider more adequate numbers for a cruising boat (To my taste, just somewhat more power should be desirable)
And she's modern and acclaimed by the specialized press, too!.....And even won prizes!

Design Category: B