Phil's Foils

[saildcat]

This is a warning to anyone who is thinking of doing business with Phil's Foils. I purchased a set of cores from him recently. The intent was to laminate them myself and use for the daggerboards on the Stiletto 27 I am modifying. When they arrived they looked like banana's lengthwise, and the foil was extremely asymetrical. Of course I contacted Phil and was told that it was my problem, not his. He would fix them for an appropriate fee. In an attempt to cut my losses I agreed to let him repair, and glass them for stability.

Months later the foils arrived. They were 'W' shaped lengthwise on the order of 1/4", twisted by 7/8", and the foil was still asymetrical. He refuses to do anything about them claiming that it is my problem and not his. Fortunately, I paid him with a credit card, and that company takes a dim view of fraud.

The bottom line is that Phil does not stand behind his products or his workmanship. Anyone considering a purchase from him should reconsider. The headache you save may be your own.

[Phil Locker]

Thanks to the reader that tipped me to this.

There are, of course, two sides to every story. Sometimes in business you have to make a decision you know will upset the customer. This is one of those times.

Very long story cut short... the customer ordered a set of milled foam cores, out of a particular foam-filled honeycomb neither of us had worked with before. I presented the option, having seen it at IBEX, and he made the decision to try it. Worked the weekend in fact to get them milled on his schedule (no thanks from him) and shipped. He kept them in the box for approx. 2 weeks before opening, and they had warped. I'm surprised, hadn't had a core warp before in shipping. My terms, BTW, are F.O.B. my workshop, so he owns them once they go on the truck. But in good will, I work a deal with him that I'll take them back, laminate them into a quickly milled female mold to straighten them out, and return them. He specified that I place his carbon unidirectionals at this time, and a lightweight eglass skin. He wanted to place the final laminates himself (I'd recommend at least an additional 40oz layup at this point to finish them). They came out of the mold looking good and straight, and I return ship to him. I billed only minimal hours for my laminating time & materials. No time counted for doing the mold, straightening the cores etc. Now three months go by, and I hear from him again. He's finally inspected them, and some warp has crept back in. This is 3 months in Florida, stored under conditions I certainly had no control over. They should have had their final laminate placed ASAP. My position is that I can't warranty a product that has remained unfinished for this length of time.

In all honesty this has been a very difficult customer right from day 1, but I've tried not to let that effect my decision. And now he's threatening legal action, threatening me with the credit card company that's involved, and appears to be following through on a promise to tell his story all over the internet.

I won't follow up further on this thread. Most of my customers are very happy with my work, and with my followup when an issue occurs. But sometimes you have to make the unpopular decision. If I ran a high-margin business it would worth paying out just to be rid of the hassle, but my margins are very slim and every dollar counts.

Thanks,
Phil

[saildcat]

Copies of every email sent/received between myself and Phil's Foils, along with digital photos, are stored in my computer and detail the chain of events most accurately. As the saying goes, buyer beware.

[Crooked Eye]

I'd be interested to know the dates of your emails as they would show how long you kept the core and then the unfinished foil without properly laminating it. Phil has built many many foils for top teams out there, some very tricky projects, and I heard nothing but praise of his product from people from Europe to USA to HI. You failed to enclose and stabilize the core and kept it in heat and humidity for too long. You thought you could complete Phil's core but you failed. As it is so far, your "caveat emptor" is libelous. No, I am not Phil, just a happy long time customer of his.

[marshmat]

Having never worked with either Saildcat or Phil before, I feel compelled to toss in my $0.02 worth....

I too would like to see a timeline here. If it is true that the customer let the materials sit unfinished for such a length of time, the problem is 100% the customer's fault. It is pretty clear to me that the customer in this case does not know enough about the materials involved to realize that it is his fault they are warped, because he let them sit unfinished for so long. Anyone familiar with composites would have done the final laminate the day after receiving the freshly made cores. Sorry Saildcat, but as someone well experienced in composite construction and design, I can't find any fault with Phil, only with your handling of the products he made for you.

[Dixie Normus]

I have worked with Phil's foils before and Phil's attention to detail and knowledge are unsurpassed. Saildcat is obviously less than attentive to the instruction and and suggestion given by Phil and publicly airing his disagreement is nothing short of cowardly. In short, show the emails you offered and the truth will come out.

[SailDesign]

I have worked with Phil on two occasions, both small jobs (probably too small for Phil to make any profit) and have been pleased with the results. Both jobs were for different customers, and involved milling full hull and deck models of very different boats. Both of these models came out very well, including the one with the bulwark that had to be stuck on after the cut.
Part of my "day job" involves 3D cutting of foams and other materials, so I know a bad job when I see it. I have never seen one in Phil's work.
Steve

[Alixander Beck]

I have never done business will Phil's Foils but have been in the know of his work for some time now. In my research I have found no indication that he uses fraudulent business practices or shotty workmanship. I very much like his 5o5 foil design and his new skiff project looks very interesting indeed.
At the risk of appearing ignorant by making a sweeping generalization, I am not surprised at the American will to take up legal action at the very slightest of inconveniences and with such low accountability.
I mean no offence, it is just my experience.
I too would like to see the email timeline.,

[yokebutt]

Personally, the d-class persons use of the term fraud strikes me as disingenious at best. There are always risks involved in using new materials, and slinging accusations without fully understanding the cause of failure is both malicious and stupid, unless the objective of the excercise is to screw Phil for a few dollars.

Would you mind posting your full name so the rest of us can avoid you?

Yoke.

[Bruce Marek]

I have used Phil's Foils professionally on two of my my Cape Fear 38 design racing sailboats. Carbon fiber shafts, thin blades, carbon laminates. Phil built a pretty pair of rudders, and to the weight that I specified. He was also very fair and knowledgeable to work with. That is my biased answer.

Now for the realities of rudders, daggerboards, etc. Just about all materials, be it wood, aluminum, foam, fiberglass and carbon fiber can change shape/size when subjected to temperature or moisture changes. I used to engineer carbon fiber masts built over aluminum mandrels. To get them off, we often had to use dry ice or in extreme cases liquid nitrogen. The cold shrunk the aluminum, and expanded the carbon. In the old days of cold molded boats, if you didn't epoxy coat a faired layer at teh end of the day, and the humidity was high, you had to go back and fair again the next day. Put to much fiberglaqss too quickly into the tight bow in a female mold, and the glass sucks in. Leave a foam cored rudder laying on its side in the sun, or even when stored out of the water in the winter with one side always to the sun, and it can grow. Experienced boatbuilders or yard repairers know this. That is what fairing putty is for.

And even if Phil's cores were perfect on arrival, once laminated, there most likely will be some amount of fairing putty or high build epoxy plus a final glazing to get the rudder to the perfect shape. I have photos of the putty that Phil had to use on my rudders. That is part of the process for a part over a core, plug or male shape. If you want a great outside surface, you make the foil in a female mold that is highly polished and accurate. Just about all production boatbuilders have rudders, centerboards, etc built from a female mold. Problem is, the parts end up with a centerline seam, which can let water in. Which can cause the foil's core to get wet over time. Or, the trailing edge can get pretty thick, because of the female molding process.

Which leads us to why go to the trouble of having a foil built over a core. It is because you can eliminate the seam. Even though I had the trailing edge of my rudders come together as a solid laminate (only 1/8" thick), I had Phil put a tape to assure that even this solid laminate wouldn't easily migrate water through the trailing edge. It caused him to have to do additional fairing because of the slight bump caused by the tape.

And at the end of the day, if you aren't willing to wet sand your rudder through several steps to at least 1000 grit, then you haven't done what the top end sailors would do. The reason Phil's Foils and several other people specialize in fairing rudders is that most of us do not have the patience to spend the time to get not only a faired rudder, but a super smooth one also.

If you are adventurous, experiment with a blow dryer on a piece of foam core, or even on a a cured cored composite panel. If held close enough to the foam, you can often make the foam grow, or even outgass enough to pop the laminate. Don't really try this at home, because it can be a fire hazard or give off noxious fumes. Leave foam in a box too long, and one side can change shape. Also, when building a foil, good builders don't lie them flat. they are glassed vertically or on edge so that the laminate can be applied to both sides at the same time. You need to achieve a balanced or "happy" laminate. And if you don't stack the laminates correctly, you can build in additional warpage. Not trying to scare anyone away from building a foil themselves Just suggesting that it is not necessarily a weekend project. If you don't have the time, patience and experience, it might be best to purchase a fully laminated, faired foil.

[Dudley Dix]

I have not met Phil but we have communicated for about a year. During this time he has made foils and models for a few of my customers. I have not heard any complaints from them about Phil's products nor his business ethics.

I have been a designer for over 25 years, during which I have seen many disputes of this type between builders and customers. Almost without exception, they have been the result of customers not fully understanding the implications of their own instructions to the builders. In this case, it seems that the customer did not appreciate the importance of stabilising the cores with proper laminates, despite the substantial differences in atmospheric conditions between Florida and Canada.

If Phil can be faulted in this, it would be his agreeing to supply the foils without stabilising laminates being included in the contract. I doubt that he will do that again except under very tightly controlled conditions.

Despite the opinion of this customer, no builder will risk the integrity of his business by willfully supplying bad product or service. When a customer negotiates a price downward to meet a budget there will always be a compensating adjustment somewhere in the product. In this case it was that the cores, by agreement, left the builder's property without the laminates on them that would have held them to shape. Along with that reduced spec required by the customer comes a responsibility to do what is necessary to complete the necessary work in a suitable timely manner to ensure success. If this is not done then the process and product both fall apart.

One last point, if the customer wants to be taken seriously with this, he must come out into the open under his own name. It is all too easy to snipe at others over the internet under the cover of a pseudonym. Stand up and be counted or sit down and shut up.

[Raggi_Thor]

I have not done any business with Phil yet, but I would not hesitate to do so if an apportunity came up. I think I have met this kind of customer myself, a couple of times, I suggest a solution and say that will take 100 hours, the customer says, OK you do the first 40 hours and I finnish it myself. Then, when the final result is not what he expected he blames all other than himself.

[Thor Temme]

Sounds like an unfortunate situation, though I have to side with Phil on this one. Hopefully the foils can be salvaged.

For what its worth I can offer my personal experience with Phil's Foils

I had Phil build me a foam core rudder blank for my 45' trimaran and could not be happier with the delivered product. It arrived unscathed despite travelling over 3000 miles, thanks to great packing and leaving a sacrificial 1/2" border around the rudder. Communication was great. And I do believe Phil's statement about slim profit margins. Overall very happy.

I would recommend Phils Foils. Although I've never personally met Phil, he does seem to be an upstanding individual.

[saildcat]

The boards were kept in an air-conditioned shop, 78 F and 50% humidity, from the time they arrived so humidity/heat while under my control is simply not an issue. They were placed on a level surface and supported every 12" using the foil shaped packing material Phil had cut. Phil was paid to laminate the cores with carbon and glass prior to shipping (the second time) for stability. Anyone ever see a 1/4" thick carbon laminate (each side of the foil, so 1/2" total) warp into a 'w' shape?

I haven't been a customer of Phil's yet but I have talked to him about hydrofoils. I have read reports from others about the excellence of Phil's work and wouldn't hesitate to do business with him.
What really burns my ass is the abuse of a forum such as this by an anonoymous jackass who doesn't have the guts to use his own name! ANYONE for any reason can do this sort of thing, unfairly smearing someone elses reputation and I think that it is absolutely reprehensible. It should be against the forum rules for anonymous jackasses to make unfounded ,unsubstantiated claims about a business-any business or individual.