Peoples Foiler-flying for the fun of it!

[Doug Lord]

yes, it is a revolution

One of the most interesting developments about to be unveiled is the new foiler or foilers from Andrew McDougall(AMAC)-designer of the Bladerider and Mach II Moths. The main characteristic of this boat, as I understand it, will be ease of sailing. When he releases more information it will be available here-you can count on it. He is the most widely known individual foiler designer to speak to the need for an easy to sail foiler to allow people to get into foiling without the hassle involved in some of the high performance boats-I'm looking forward to his ideas.
Since the Peoples Foiler concept was first conceived by me years ago there has been lots of foiler development-mostly in the Moth class but also:
1) Mirabaud the largest 2 foil monofoiler currently sailing-about as fast as a Moth according to Thomas Jundt-the developer.
2) R Class foiler-the second 2 person bi-foiler ever developed in history,
3) and more: see New High Performance Monofoilers
My conception of a Peoples Foiler follows but it is critical to note that the people will define what actually becomes a "Peoples Foiler" not me but I suspect that the NUMBER ONE ingredient will be the sheer unadulterated fun of flying! Speed is not critical-ease of sailing and fun are the priority.
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Some Potential Characteristics of a Peoples Foiler 2010:

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1) Category One-Full Flying
a- I have always conceived of a Peoples Foiler as an easy to sail monohull foiler using just two hydrofoils because of the simplicity of such an arrangement.
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b-the boat should probably be capable of sailing well with a 200-220lb single crew and be designed, perhaps, to use a form of weight equalization-allowing a wide crew range from perhaps 120lb-220lb, if possible-or "lightweight" and "heavyweight" versions. And/ or, a two person boat that could also be foiled singlehandedly.
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c-beach sailable: must have retractable foils and excellent sea hugging stability-with buoyancy pods.
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d-reefable rig, perhaps similar to the High Performance RS600FF, easy to do.
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e-foiling characteristics:
---1- takes off in 5 knot wind-many areas of the world are very light air most of the time-it is critical to be able to foil in those conditions.
---2- excellent pitch characteristics-no crashes. Foils could be designed to have designed in/removable spoilers that allow light air takeoff with reduced top speed and reduced sensitivity to altitude control issues. A partial/full manual control system may not only be fun to sail with-it could be designed and developed to be sailed manually or automatically or a combination of both. Use could be made of variations of the Howes foil for the ultimate in two foil altitude control simplicity.
---3- low and /or variable altitude settings.
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f- Emphasis on extreme crew comfort with the possible use of lightweight sliding bench seats to make it easy and fast to move side to side.
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2) Category 2-Foil Assist
a- there are already boats like the I-14 , National 12 , Paul Riccelli's RYD14.6 and probably others using one form of "foil assist"-a rudder t-foil or similar type foil. But this is a huge untapped area of monohull design where the gains are potentially increased performance and better handling with minimum sized foils . The foils don't lift the boat clear of the water but do reduce the wetted surface of the hull and can enhance pitch performance and handling upwind and downwind .
Lots more potential for development here in all sizes of boat.
See pictures below of Jo Richards National 12 using a t-foil rudder AND a trim tab on the daggerboard. Interestingly, the 12 t-foil rudder can be partially retracted for light air sailing to get rid of the hydrofoil yet leave enough rudder for control. Very innovative! Also, check out the retractable bow foils/flaps on "paradigm"...
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http://www.cowes.co.uk/zonexml/story..._id=5509;cp=0#
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National 12, retracting rudder: http://www.national12.org/adverts/ro...igm2_flyer.pdf
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http://www.mcdougalldesigns.com/McDo...ils_Sails.html
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PIX: "Tomahawk Foils"(Howes foil) on proto/ Jo Richards National 12 with T-foil rudder and trimtab on daggerboard from cowes.com(above),N12 sailing by Tim Hattersley from sail-world.com and National 12 bow flap/ foils(paradigm),RYD 14.6(Paul Ricelli):

[Doug Lord]

An important characteristic of a Peoples Foiler, not mentioned above, should probably be an unstayed rig-for the sake of simplicity.
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It should also be pointed out that a Peoples Foiler need not be built out of carbon-glass and aluminum would work fine including an aluminum mast and ,possibly aluminum foils.

[Munter]

Doug - given that you know so much about the people's foiler why don't you design it? What are you waiting for?

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Munter

... What are you waiting for?

The return of the Mothership to District 9 so that alien technology can be pilfered.

Go The Prawns

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Munter

Doug - given that you know so much about the people's foiler why don't you design it? What are you waiting for?

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Basically, nobody can design a foiler and call it a Peoples Foiler. It will become a "Peoples Foiler" if the people make it one. AMAC may be the closest to actually producing a PF wanabe-it will take a serious organization with the capability of marketing and delivering worldwide. He sure has the interest in producing an easy to sail foiler....

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

The return of the Mothership to District 9 so that alien technology can be pilfered.

Go The Prawns

A completely underrated movie!

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

==========
Basically, nobody can design a foiler and call it a Peoples Foiler. It will become a "Peoples Foiler" if the people make it one. AMAC may be the closest to actually producing a PF wanabe-it will take a serious organization with the capability of marketing and delivering worldwide. He sure has the interest in producing an easy to sail foiler....

Glad to see you are beginning to understand the scope of your hoped-for revolution. Understanding that people actually have to want what you are promoting is the first major step back towards the real world.

I feel very positive about the progress you are making.

--
Bill

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Munter

Doug - given that you know so much about the people's foiler why don't you design it? What are you waiting for?

You have seen the attempts at drawings he has posted on this site, haven't you?

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You have seen the attempts at drawings he has posted on this site, haven't you?

That kind Nurse Ratched gives out lined yellow legal pads and pencils that aren't sharp enough to hurt anyone. You can't blame anyone for the low quality of the drawings.

(From the new movie release "One Flew over the Cocoa Beach" starring Robin Williams).

[PI Design]

I have to agree with Doug that a simple foiler that foils for foilings sake (rather than max speed), should have appeal. I don't expect it would sell thousands a year, but it should do reasonably - if done right. I also agree that 'foil assist' has great potential, but again, is not for everyone.
In terms of a full foiler, I think an unstayed rig would be a challenge because you need such a flat sail when foiling (but not when hugging). I suspect an unstayed rig would be too draggy. Ali foils, 29er style (but for the horizontal part too) would be great, providing good enough sections can be produced that way. I'm sure they can be.
Whilst there is much that can be learned from Moth's, the modus operandi of a peoples foiler is so far removed that I suspect that it would be quite different to a detuned Moth. A PF has the very great benefit of not being constrained by class rules, or even ISAF rules, so electronics and other devices could be useful (any news on Clive Everest's progress?). I wonder if an arrangement similar to what the early foiling Moths used (before they were banned) might be good for a PF - twin surface piercing foils at the daggerboards longitudinal location?
The problem with the Hobie Trifoiler etc is that they were large and cumbersome, and slow to rig. A PF would need to be as close to an existing mainstream dinghy as possible to gain acceptance, or at the very least be as simple as one.
BTW, I am currently conducting several hundred thousand dollars of testing on an automated hydrofoil system. Its application is too far removed from a foiling dinghy to be of much practical use, but I have observed first hand the dramatic loss of lift that occurs when a foil is in very close proximity to the surface. Perhaps use can be made of that?

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by PI Design

1) I wonder if an arrangement similar to what the early foiling Moths used (before they were banned) might be good for a PF - twin surface piercing foils at the daggerboards longitudinal location?
2)BTW, I am currently conducting several hundred thousand dollars of testing on an automated hydrofoil system. Its application is too far removed from a foiling dinghy to be of much practical use, but I have observed first hand the dramatic loss of lift that occurs when a foil is in very close proximity to the surface. Perhaps use can be made of that?

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1) Maybe but I doubt it-Brett Burvills Moth was fairly hard to control downwind(as I remember it) but the dual foils would be expensive. Now surface piercing foils with an overall B/L like hydroptere (1.35) might be easier to control and the foils could retract like Hydropteres do. Both Brett Burvill and John Ilett think Burvills system might prove fast if it had the same development time as the fully submerged bi-foil system. I think this idea has merit but I still think a properly designed bi-foiler could be less exensive and equally as easy to sail. Many people use the Moth as their reference point as to why a bi-foiler can't be easy to sail. Thats unfortunate because the concept has a lot going for it in an easy to sail version--just two foils, retractable foils, doesn't have to fly 3' in the air etc. And I think you're probably wrong about the unstayed mast: the 40' Spitfire foiler used two unstayed masts......
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2) Any more detail? Surface proximity drag is used on some Russian river foilers as an altitude control system.

[Chris Ostlind]

Trouble is, that if the boat in question is only going to fly at say, 2' max, above the surface... ever, you have severely limited the locales where the boat can be used. You might as well suggest to the mythical manufacturer that they have to start out with a 50% reduction in potential marketplace in their business model.

Now, there's a reality that will never fly.

Never mind that the stated objective was to fly at low speeds. The boat will not be flying half the time in normal conditions due to surface contact. That's not a boat that someone will pay a premium price to own.

This, downgrading of potential, thing is always a tough sale unless the price point is so drastically low that it leaves the comparison paradigm far behind. This is especially true when foilers have gone to such great lengths to sell the sizzle way more than the steak. Now, you have a sailing community that knows all about the speed potential of the existing boats and you want to sell them Speed Lite Junior.

I don't see it happening in a market that has to compete with full-blown kite rigs that will still cost half as much out the door.

The result... Foiling Lite Junior will be confined to its own slender niche market, just like its big brother and that will not attract a major manufacturer to enter the fray.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Trouble is, that if the boat in question is only going to fly at say, 2' max, above the surface... ever, you have severely limited the locales where the boat can be used.

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Some fly high for racing, some fly low for racing. ANY foiler can have its altitude designed to be 1) low, 2) high or 3) adjustable-and they do it all over the world now:

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

--just two foils, retractable foils, doesn't have to fly 3' in the air etc...

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Some fly high for racing, some fly low for racing. ANY foiler can have its altitude designed to be low, high or adjustable-and they do it all over the world now

Besides the fact that you're putting up bandwidth killing streams of already seen too many times, photos... you're once again, missing the point.

You are the one who said "doesn't have to fly 3' in the air...". I was commenting on that position. We all know that the existing platform can be adjusted to suit sailing conditions, but that's not the point, now, is it?

Have you ever heard of the word... obtuse?

[PI Design]

Ah, I wasn't aware of that Spitfire thing. Maybe it can be done with an unstayed rig if that is preferred.
Sorry, can't give more details of my work, but the effect is very noticable - there is a real reluctance for the foils to actually break the surface (although my section, size and aspect ratio are quite different to a Moths foils).

[Doug Lord]

PI, just wanted to eliminate the shrouds-one more thing to fly into. Of course, there will be very few if any crashes in a well designed PF.