Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4

The concept of a Peoples Foiler is an exciting one. Take a look at the M4 project being developed by Simon Maguire.
The M4 concept
Address:http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ Changed:8:52 PM on Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Eric Sponberg and I are developing the aeroSKIFF™ project.(SEE DRAWINGS UNDER POST# 15 BELOW)
Both groups are looking at the idea of a foiler that could appeal to a wider group of people than the extraordinary Moth foiler-the inspiration behind both projects.
---- The original aeroSKIFF 16 monofoiler is serving as a test bed for numerous ideas that may be incorporated in the final version aeroSKIFF 14 designed by Eric Sponberg and myself with all structural engineering by Eric Sponberg. So far we have not been able to raise the funds to proceed very far so things are moving slowly-though we continue the search. The 16 is having major modifications made now to help sort out various concepts.New pictures will be posted on www.monofoiler.com when the mods are complete and then later sailing pictures when we're satisfied with the results.
So here are some details of the aeroSKIFF excerpted from our presentation:
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Marketing
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We feel the boat should be easy to sail by an experienced sailor(including windsurfers and kite guys) that graduates from one of our Foiler Flying Centers the first of which would be located at the Calema Windsurf facility on Meritt Island, Florida. The owner is a champion windsurfer who runs the Gaastra sail R&D shop as well as a school and shop for windsurfing equipment. He is an experienced ,very knowledgeable sailor and thinks a well designed aeroSKIFF would compliment his business.We feel the key to making a successful foiler marketing campaign will begin with a Foiler Flying Center school where graduates can rent boats and experience foiling under the guidance of knowledgeble instructors. In fact, one idea that we favor is to make the sale of an aeroSKIFF contingent on completion of the foiler course. Impulse sales of this kind of boat would probably be counter-productive. Calema believes in the school concept as critical for their business as it is now and as it would be with the aeroSKIFF. Most customers will welcome this; we will insist on it.
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There is a lot more to our plan but that is one of the critical parts to building a foiler business.
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TARGET SPECIFICATIONS / aeroSKIFF 14 / based on 250lb. max crew-drawings in post 15 based on 220lb. max crew.
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1) LOA 14'8" Beam 12'(drawings in post 15 show 10' beam-beam may be increased to reduce buoyancy pod size and to help make crew weight range wider)
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2) Target ready to fly boat weight: 120 lb.s
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3) Max Crew 250lb.s ; target minimum crew 120lb. -----------------------------------------------
4) Flying weight: 370lb.s
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5) SA 143 sq.ft. square topped, camber induced , main only, unstayed mast ,extended luff, modified wishbone, midboom sheeting.
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6) Standard main foil area 1.68 sq.ft.
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7) Mainfoil loading @ 80% 176lb. sq. ft.
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8) Rudder foil area 50% mainfoil area.
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9) SA/mainfoil area: 85sq. ft. per sq.ft. foil area.
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10) "Wing Loading"( all up weight divided by SA) =2.58lb.s per sq.ft. SA.
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11) Draft ,off foils; foils extended= 3.75'-variable.
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Features
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1) High speed rig with sail design by Barry Spanier; mast design and engineering by Eric Sponberg.Forward third of sail comes completely down to the deck; the boom is a modified version of a wishbone boom with a cross member just forward of mid length that takes the mainsheet. The sheet is led to a traveller on the forward beam allowing the sheet to come from forward. A twin vang set up will be used should a vang be required.
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2) Foils retract to facilitate beach launching.
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3) Sliding single bench seat; slides easily and contains ballast compartment for one design class weight equalization system.Motion control system that prevents runaway seat in adverse situations.
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4) Standard foils optimized for low speed takeoff; optional tip extentions; optional high speed foils.
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5) Buoyancy pods approx 1.56 cu' per side; larger optional pods available for training.(see approx 3 cu. ft. pods illustrated in the sketches in post #15)
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6)Rudder: unique design slides up and down in daggerboard style slot; stepped rudder flap designed to allow variable rudder area between non foiling and foiling; Target is to have rudder throw and sensitivity the same on or off
foils.
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7) Double ended hull facilitates earlist 0 to takeoff; facillitates pitch change to allow early takeoff though foil system may not require this.
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8) Trampoline each side with heel cutouts allowing quick, secure seat movement.
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9) Foils designed to take loads imposed by jumping which can be initiated by twisting hiking stick(s).System bypasses wand but still utilizes forward /rear foil interconnect.
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10) Variable main foil "gear shift" angle of incidence adjustment. From "set it and forget it" to fine tuning main foil drag.
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11) Exceptionally wide crew weight range ; one design cass races wil be sailed at the 250 lb.s crew weight. Speed runs will be able to be made with lower crew weight as long as RM is addressed.
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12) Wand controlled altitude with height adjustment. Set it and forget it or tweak it. Unique averaging wand system to improve choppy water response including fore and aft foil interconnect and wand bypass for smoother flying and better jumps.
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Jumping is an important part of this foiler design because we think it will add to the value of the boat and to the fun of flying this foiler.

[tspeer]

You've missed the most important performance specification for a foiler: minimum wind speed for takeoff with an average (or maximum) crew weight. This, more than anything else, will determine the popularity of the craft. This number should drive the sail area, foil loading, foil span loading, etc. Feature 4 doesn't cut it. You should be designing to an actual requirement.

You're right I missed mentioning it; it is a major consideration for this design. Early take off is critically important for this type of foiler. What we've done is show specifications that will allow the boat to meet or exceed the charateristics of the Moth vs a vs early takeoff while having a high maximum crew weight with a wide crew weight range. We start with that(what we know works well) and then experiment with foil size on the prototype.

[Nobody]

Sounds great.

I will follow your development closely. I would like to be able to foil but am too heavy for a Moth. When is it likely to be available? How much is it likely to cost? Where should I send the money?

Nobody

[Paul B]

When will you post drawings of this new 14 foot design? This board is about Boat Design, not Raising Capital.

How much money are you trying to raise, and what ROI are you promising?

What stage are the mods on your nono-foiler at? When was the last time it was in the water, and when will it be back in the water proving your theories? What is the total time it has sailed to date, and of that time how much time has been spent foiling (hull clear of the water)? What is the longest time/distance it has foiled without touching down?

NB, the information presented here about the two Peoples Foiler projects is intended to show those interested what the only two one design foiler projects that I know of are up to and in the case of the aeroSKIFF™ to present fairly detailed information so that the thinking behind the boat and the concepts involved are a little clearer. We aren't presenting information here to try to sell boats or to raise money -just to provide an overview of our thinking and that of Simon Maguire with the M4 to those excited about the phenomenol accomplishments of the International Moth but for one reason or another not interested in that class. These two projects show that maybe-down the line- there is hope for the rest of us to be able to experience the monofoiler revolution. There may be other projects as well which I will present here as soon as they come to my attention.
If Eric can get the images scanned and find the time he will post at least a sideview of the aeroSKIFF™.

[Neverbehind]

How much is this going to cost, and can it take rough weather (3+ foot waves) without having to worry about the foils being damaged?

Those conditions should present no problem to a well designed boat.
A new Internatinal Moth ready to fly is about 12,000US+ shipping. Depending on level of production our boat should come in between that and $15,000 US as a very preliminary educated guesstimate.

[usa2]

aeroSKIFF™ -why do you patent or trademark everything you do? In the sailing "industry" if you can call it that, there is not much of a point in it...

[K4s]

You want to design a 14 foot single person,unstayed rig,wishbone boom,camber induced sail type of craft that can be jumped(landings are a different story again)and call it what,oh I know....Windsurfer

[carlos reynoso]

I'm kind of new to boating, having sailed a Laser owned by a friend for the last year. I'm 20 now and I'm in a local technical college.

If this reference to a People's Foiler is meant to indicate that the boat will be designed and priced for regular guy like me, why do you have it priced at $14-15,000? It's very difficult to imagine a guy like me being able to afford this boat unless the Powerball Jackpot landed in my lap.

I was looking at new boats the other day and was really taken by the Vector. They can be purchased for $8000 which is more than I can probably spend. $15,000 is out of the question.

Carlos

Carlos, prices will come down as production grows.In the meantime ,if you're willing to do the work you can build your own first class foiler Moth for $7-8000 including the best in the world Fastacraft foils.It is a proven design , one of the fastest sailboats under 20' -see the posts 88,89,90 in the Foiler 1 GP thread for some idea of cost. In addition, people like Steve Clark are getting into helping guys pull together their own boats and along with help from Phil Stevenson and John Ilett you should have loads of help available. You can also consider a second hand boat available mostly in Europe or Australia. Google the Australian Moth site and check out the forum. Good Luck!

[Raggi_Thor]

It's great, I like it :-)

[Chris Ostlind]

Interestingly enough, this was just posted on the front page of today's Sailing Anarchy, a publication that is one of Doug Lord's favorite justifications for putting an overly complex boat into the marketplace under the marketing misnomer of a People's Foiler. This is a rather refreshing and articulate view from a regular guy who is searching for a boat that makes sense...

" ...To increase the membership you have to allow people to imagine themselves in the boats themselves- not scared away from the boats by complicity, money, decorating (or lack therof). So we move onto CL and take a look at all the pricey Dinghys. What could be more unappealing to the "cottage" boater than a $15,000 Club 420? Can you not buy a jetski or skidoo for less? Jesus Christ. Try making boats for the regular family and you may actually someday gain the massive middle markets of the regular consumer which is where success in sailing can only be found."

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/

This point of view is obviously supported by the SA publisher, or you'd not likely see it on the front page as a hosted rant. It would get put up in one of the Forums, for sure, but he obviously believes that this point of view is powerfully grounded in the sailing community's need to produce nicely detailed, simple, affordable boats. More folks should be able to get out on the water and get sailing in a boat that will be easy to drive with very solid returns of fun and enjoyment for the minimum dollar spent.

Chris

[Eric Sponberg]

Here are some of the drawings for the Aeroskiff that Doug and I have developed so far.

As I mentioned on the Foiler 1GP thread, technically, the boat can be built and it will work. The final performance numbers and production cost will be answered by the prototype program. I don't think we can definitely promise anything at this stage, but from my point of view, the concept holds a lot of promise.

Eric