Peoples Foiler-flying for the fun of it!

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Mar 18, 2010.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Peoples Foiler:2010-flying for the fun of it!-R Class Contribution

    While the R Class is pretty well covered in the "New High Performance Monofoilers" thread one comment made on their front page deserves mention here:
    "One of the important parts of the project has been to make hydrofoiling an affordable and practical part of R sailing for anyone in the fleet no matter what boat they have and how old it may be."

    There are many classes that could benefit from the addition of hydrofoils just for the fun of it and it could result in the resurgence of those classes-not necessarily as high performance boats but as boats that have discovered a new way to sail.
    A "Peoples Foiler" wanabe does not ,necessarily, have to be a new boat-imagine if Mal Smith's project making a foiling Laser with the least modifications possible works out. It won't beat a Moth-but so what-flying is fun for its own sake.
    It's worth taking a good hard look at a bunch of existing classes to see what might be possible.

    http://www.rclass.org/
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Foiling Laser-Mal Smith design

    This design is very interesting with a surface piercing mainfoil that eliminates the need for an altitude control system(wand or manual). It is innovative, simple and has a great deal of potential.
    Thanks to Mal for permission to post these renderings of his:
     

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  3. PI Design
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    PI Design Senior Member

    That looks interesting. The surface piercing element, which (theoretically) allows a level of automation is well suited to a PF. BTW in the latest issue of Y&Y (digital subscription available) quotes Nick Peters (director at LDC/RS) as believing that the technology needed for a one design foiled is about three years away - but the inference was that RS will make "PF" one day.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ---------------
    Thanks,Pi-thats pretty cool!
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  6. eric le marin
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    eric le marin naval architect

    What do you mean by "easy to sail" ?
    The Hobbycat trifoiler was so easy that it had no interest.
    The projects you are showing are so unstable that they need several year of 29er kind practice to be rided.

    Don't you think a catamaran with foils would be the most "PF" of the foilers, like the HobbyCat14 for non-foilers ?
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ----------------------------

    What specific projects that I indicated were representative of a "Peoples Foiler" are you referring to?


    ============================================
    --Easy to sail:
    1) easy to beach launch and retrieve with retractable foils,
    2) stable both on and off foils-use of buoyancy pods, use of adjustable altitude foil system, possible use of the Howes foil or similar for simplicity.
    3) reefable rig
    4) unstayed rig
    5) capable of being easily sailed by anyone that can sail a Sunfish,
    6) quick to set up and break down.
    7) capable of being foiled by a heavier than average person and/or by a couple of kids,
    --removable foil tips(a simple system for foil configuration)
    8) take off in a 5 knot wind
    9) affordable pricing
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    From post Number One:
     
  8. eric le marin
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Well, all I guess. If I understood correctly, you are one of these superhereos able to ride a moth foiler. Congratulation for that.
    Personally, I had some troubles with a RS1000 already...
    So, my question can be reformulated as : "what kind of persons would buy this PF ?"
    I do think that there is a market, and I would like to be included :-D
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======================
    Eric, I have never sailed a Moth foiler! However,I have designed, built and foiled my own 16 footer. Careful reading of my first post might show(should show) that it is my opinion that no "Peoples Foiler" exists as of now. The prime motivation for this thread is to discuss those design characteristics that would allow a "Peoples Foiler" to be built AND to follow the soon to be (I hope) released design approaches for Andrew McDougall's new line of "easy to sail" foilers.
    As I've showed in the "High Performance Monofoiler" thread and in other threads there has been tremendous technical progress in monofoiler design in
    the last ten years-most of it devoted to going faster around a course. There is a lot more fun to flying a foiler than just going fast around a course!
    Hopefully, now that one of the best monofoiler designers in the world is working on "an easy to sail" foiler, there may, at last be progress in that direction.
     
  10. eric le marin
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Ok, third edition of the question : "Don't you think that transversal stability could be a problem ?"

    I have no experience of monofoilers, but it seems very unstable to me. So, this easy to sail monofoiler should, from my point of view, offer a better tolerance on transversal stability. Therefor, the solution with one foil on each side, with independant regulation systems seems clever to me.
     
  11. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ----------------------
    No. When the boat is not foiling the buoyancy pods would allow it to be very stable. When it is foiling the width(athwartship span) of the foil adds tremendous roll stability. A "Peoples Foiler" could use a wider(a foil with greater span) than "normal" to enhance foiling stability while at the same time enhancing the boats low wind speed take-off characteristics. This would affect top-end speed,but so what? Flying is the thing... Foils with removable tips could be re-configured simply for higher top end speed.
    This was the basis of the foil system on the Rave and Hobie trifoiler. It has the side effect of more foils in the water and can raise takeoff speed but variations on this theme may prove beneficial. The thing about a two foil monofoiler(bi-foiler) is the simplicity: one foil on the daggerboard, one foil on the rudder, one altitude control system(if any).
    Two foils instead of three can reduce cost and weight considerably.
     
  12. eric le marin
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    eric le marin naval architect

    Sounds good :)

    Another question : most of the foilers I have seen flying where inclined toward the wind. It seems very logical, physically, but also very uncomfortable... How is your back when you come back on shore ?
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    I have virtually no first hand experience with windward heel(veal heel) on a foiler but the answer to you question would surely depend on the boat and how the righting system was worked out-hiking like on a Moth, trapeze(s) like on an RF600FF ,Mirabaud or R Class or some other system.
    My answer for a "Peoples Foiler" is a sliding bench seat with back rest-no hiking, no trapeze-just comfortable fast sailing.

    aeroSKIFF 14 model pictures:
    (click on the image then click again for largest size)
     

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  14. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Comfort on a small foiler being a relative term, of course. This bench seat thing is unnecessary added weight and complexity to a boat that depends on being as light as possible.

    Has anyone here tried to smoothly move about on a set of rails set several feet apart... and not had the mechanism jam, repeatedly from off-axis movement?
     

  15. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Good point, one that I can appreciate from time spent on robot design teams. It is not easy to get smooth jam-free movement in a linear mechanism with widely-spaced rails and off-axis thrust, we usually put drives on both sides and co-ordinate their movement, or linked them with a torque tube.

    It could certainly be done with linear bearings but that would be heavy and costly, leaving aside the reaction of the ground steel rails to water! A central support rail would halve the maximum moment from off-center drive force, and could be combined with side rails to support off-axis weight only, reducing tendency to jam considerably IMHO. That is the method I used for my sliding canoe seat, which has nylon sliders running on an aluminum tee-rail.
     
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