Peoples Foiler-flying for the fun of it!

[Doug Lord]

Peoples Foiler:2010-flying for the fun of it!-R Class Contribution

While the R Class is pretty well covered in the "New High Performance Monofoilers" thread one comment made on their front page deserves mention here:
"One of the important parts of the project has been to make hydrofoiling an affordable and practical part of R sailing for anyone in the fleet no matter what boat they have and how old it may be."

There are many classes that could benefit from the addition of hydrofoils just for the fun of it and it could result in the resurgence of those classes-not necessarily as high performance boats but as boats that have discovered a new way to sail.
A "Peoples Foiler" wanabe does not ,necessarily, have to be a new boat-imagine if Mal Smith's project making a foiling Laser with the least modifications possible works out. It won't beat a Moth-but so what-flying is fun for its own sake.
It's worth taking a good hard look at a bunch of existing classes to see what might be possible.

http://www.rclass.org/

 

[Doug Lord]

Foiling Laser-Mal Smith design

This design is very interesting with a surface piercing mainfoil that eliminates the need for an altitude control system(wand or manual). It is innovative, simple and has a great deal of potential.
Thanks to Mal for permission to post these renderings of his:

 

[PI Design]

That looks interesting. The surface piercing element, which (theoretically) allows a level of automation is well suited to a PF. BTW in the latest issue of Y&Y (digital subscription available) quotes Nick Peters (director at LDC/RS) as believing that the technology needed for a one design foiled is about three years away - but the inference was that RS will make "PF" one day.

 

[Doug Lord]

That looks interesting. The surface piercing element, which (theoretically) allows a level of automation is well suited to a PF. BTW in the latest issue of Y&Y (digital subscription available) quotes Nick Peters (director at LDC/RS) as believing that the technology needed for a one design foiled is about three years away - but the inference was that RS will make "PF" one day.

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Thanks,Pi-thats pretty cool!

 

[Doug Lord]

Peoples Foiler(multihull?)

From the front page of SA-is it a foiler or is it a multihull-that is the question:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php

click on image and then click on resulting image:

 

[eric le marin]

What do you mean by "easy to sail" ?
The Hobbycat trifoiler was so easy that it had no interest.
The projects you are showing are so unstable that they need several year of 29er kind practice to be rided.

Don't you think a catamaran with foils would be the most "PF" of the foilers, like the HobbyCat14 for non-foilers ?

 

[Doug Lord]

What do you mean by "easy to sail" ?
The Hobbycat trifoiler was so easy that it had no interest.
The projects you are showing are so unstable that they need several year of 29er kind practice to be rided.
Don't you think a catamaran with foils would be the most "PF" of the foilers, like the HobbyCat14 for non-foilers ?

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What specific projects that I indicated were representative of a "Peoples Foiler" are you referring to?


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--Easy to sail:
1) easy to beach launch and retrieve with retractable foils,
2) stable both on and off foils-use of buoyancy pods, use of adjustable altitude foil system, possible use of the Howes foil or similar for simplicity.
3) reefable rig
4) unstayed rig
5) capable of being easily sailed by anyone that can sail a Sunfish,
6) quick to set up and break down.
7) capable of being foiled by a heavier than average person and/or by a couple of kids,
--removable foil tips(a simple system for foil configuration)
8) take off in a 5 knot wind
9) affordable pricing
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From post Number One:

yes, it is a revolution

One of the most interesting developments about to be unveiled is the new foiler or foilers from Andrew McDougall(AMAC)-designer of the Bladerider and Mach II Moths. The main characteristic of this boat, as I understand it, will be ease of sailing. When he releases more information it will be available here-you can count on it. He is the most widely known individual foiler designer to speak to the need for an easy to sail foiler to allow people to get into foiling without the hassle involved in some of the high performance boats-I'm looking forward to his ideas.
Since the Peoples Foiler concept was first conceived by me years ago there has been lots of foiler development-mostly in the Moth class but also:
1) Mirabaud the largest 2 foil monofoiler currently sailing-about as fast as a Moth according to Thomas Jundt-the developer.
2) R Class foiler-the second 2 person bi-foiler ever developed in history,
3) and more: see New High Performance Monofoilers
My conception of a Peoples Foiler follows but it is critical to note that the people will define what actually becomes a "Peoples Foiler" not me but I suspect that the NUMBER ONE ingredient will be the sheer unadulterated fun of flying! Speed is not critical-ease of sailing and fun are the priority.
=================

Some Potential Characteristics of a Peoples Foiler 2010:

--
1) Category One-Full Flying
a- I have always conceived of a Peoples Foiler as an easy to sail monohull foiler using just two hydrofoils because of the simplicity of such an arrangement.
--
b-the boat should probably be capable of sailing well with a 200-220lb single crew and be designed, perhaps, to use a form of weight equalization-allowing a wide crew range from perhaps 120lb-220lb, if possible-or "lightweight" and "heavyweight" versions. And/ or, a two person boat that could also be foiled singlehandedly.
--
c-beach sailable: must have retractable foils and excellent sea hugging stability-with buoyancy pods.
--
d-reefable rig, perhaps similar to the High Performance RS600FF, easy to do.
--
e-foiling characteristics:
---1- takes off in 5 knot wind-many areas of the world are very light air most of the time-it is critical to be able to foil in those conditions.
---2- excellent pitch characteristics-no crashes. Foils could be designed to have designed in/removable spoilers that allow light air takeoff with reduced top speed and reduced sensitivity to altitude control issues. A partial/full manual control system may not only be fun to sail with-it could be designed and developed to be sailed manually or automatically or a combination of both. Use could be made of variations of the Howes foil for the ultimate in two foil altitude control simplicity.
---3- low and /or variable altitude settings.
--
f- Emphasis on extreme crew comfort with the possible use of lightweight sliding bench seats to make it easy and fast to move side to side.
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2) Category 2-Foil Assist
a- there are already boats like the I-14 , National 12 , Paul Riccelli's RYD14.6 and probably others using one form of "foil assist"-a rudder t-foil or similar type foil. But this is a huge untapped area of monohull design where the gains are potentially increased performance and better handling with minimum sized foils . The foils don't lift the boat clear of the water but do reduce the wetted surface of the hull and can enhance pitch performance and handling upwind and downwind .
Lots more potential for development here in all sizes of boat.
See pictures below of Jo Richards National 12 using a t-foil rudder AND a trim tab on the daggerboard. Interestingly, the 12 t-foil rudder can be partially retracted for light air sailing to get rid of the hydrofoil yet leave enough rudder for control. Very innovative! Also, check out the retractable bow foils/flaps on "paradigm"...
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http://www.cowes.co.uk/zonexml/story?story_id=5509;cp=0#
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National 12, retracting rudder: http://www.national12.org/adverts/rondar_paradigm2_flyer.pdf
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http://www.mcdougalldesigns.com/McDougall_Boats_Foils_Sails.html
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[eric le marin]

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What specific projects that I indicated were representative of a "Peoples Foiler" are you referring to?

Well, all I guess. If I understood correctly, you are one of these superhereos able to ride a moth foiler. Congratulation for that.
Personally, I had some troubles with a RS1000 already...
So, my question can be reformulated as : "what kind of persons would buy this PF ?"
I do think that there is a market, and I would like to be included :-D

 

[Doug Lord]

Well, all I guess. If I understood correctly, you are one of these superhereos able to ride a moth foiler. Congratulation for that.
Personally, I had some troubles with a RS1000 already...
So, my question can be reformulated as : "what kind of persons would buy this PF ?"
I do think that there is a market, and I would like to be included :-D

=======================
Eric, I have never sailed a Moth foiler! However,I have designed, built and foiled my own 16 footer. Careful reading of my first post might show(should show) that it is my opinion that no "Peoples Foiler" exists as of now. The prime motivation for this thread is to discuss those design characteristics that would allow a "Peoples Foiler" to be built AND to follow the soon to be (I hope) released design approaches for Andrew McDougall's new line of "easy to sail" foilers.
As I've showed in the "High Performance Monofoiler" thread and in other threads there has been tremendous technical progress in monofoiler design in
the last ten years-most of it devoted to going faster around a course. There is a lot more fun to flying a foiler than just going fast around a course!
Hopefully, now that one of the best monofoiler designers in the world is working on "an easy to sail" foiler, there may, at last be progress in that direction.

 

[eric le marin]

Ok, third edition of the question : "Don't you think that transversal stability could be a problem ?"

I have no experience of monofoilers, but it seems very unstable to me. So, this easy to sail monofoiler should, from my point of view, offer a better tolerance on transversal stability. Therefor, the solution with one foil on each side, with independant regulation systems seems clever to me.

 

[Doug Lord]

Ok, third edition of the question : "Don't you think that transversal stability could be a problem ?"
I have no experience of monofoilers, but it seems very unstable to me. So, this easy to sail monofoiler should, from my point of view, offer a better tolerance on transversal stability. Therefor, the solution with one foil on each side, with independant regulation systems seems clever to me.

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No. When the boat is not foiling the buoyancy pods would allow it to be very stable. When it is foiling the width(athwartship span) of the foil adds tremendous roll stability. A "Peoples Foiler" could use a wider(a foil with greater span) than "normal" to enhance foiling stability while at the same time enhancing the boats low wind speed take-off characteristics. This would affect top-end speed,but so what? Flying is the thing... Foils with removable tips could be re-configured simply for higher top end speed.
This was the basis of the foil system on the Rave and Hobie trifoiler. It has the side effect of more foils in the water and can raise takeoff speed but variations on this theme may prove beneficial. The thing about a two foil monofoiler(bi-foiler) is the simplicity: one foil on the daggerboard, one foil on the rudder, one altitude control system(if any).
Two foils instead of three can reduce cost and weight considerably.

 

[eric le marin]

----------------------
the width(athwartship span) of the foil adds tremendous roll stability.

Sounds good

Another question : most of the foilers I have seen flying where inclined toward the wind. It seems very logical, physically, but also very uncomfortable... How is your back when you come back on shore ?

 

[Doug Lord]

Sounds good

Another question : most of the foilers I have seen flying where inclined toward the wind. It seems very logical, physically, but also very uncomfortable... How is your back when you come back on shore ?

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I have virtually no first hand experience with windward heel(veal heel) on a foiler but the answer to you question would surely depend on the boat and how the righting system was worked out-hiking like on a Moth, trapeze(s) like on an RF600FF ,Mirabaud or R Class or some other system.
My answer for a "Peoples Foiler" is a sliding bench seat with back rest-no hiking, no trapeze-just comfortable fast sailing.

aeroSKIFF 14 model pictures:
(click on the image then click again for largest size)

 

[Chris Ostlind]

My answer for a "Peoples Foiler" is a sliding bench seat with back rest-no hiking, no trapeze-just comfortable fast sailing.

Comfort on a small foiler being a relative term, of course. This bench seat thing is unnecessary added weight and complexity to a boat that depends on being as light as possible.

Has anyone here tried to smoothly move about on a set of rails set several feet apart... and not had the mechanism jam, repeatedly from off-axis movement?

 

[ancient kayaker]

... Has anyone here tried to smoothly move about on a set of rails set several feet apart... and not had the mechanism jam, repeatedly from off-axis movement?

Good point, one that I can appreciate from time spent on robot design teams. It is not easy to get smooth jam-free movement in a linear mechanism with widely-spaced rails and off-axis thrust, we usually put drives on both sides and co-ordinate their movement, or linked them with a torque tube.

It could certainly be done with linear bearings but that would be heavy and costly, leaving aside the reaction of the ground steel rails to water! A central support rail would halve the maximum moment from off-center drive force, and could be combined with side rails to support off-axis weight only, reducing tendency to jam considerably IMHO. That is the method I used for my sliding canoe seat, which has nylon sliders running on an aluminum tee-rail.