open 20 footer

[usa2]

Port Phillip Bay is a big bay, but not wide open to the southern open that much. Say that you are designing a foiler for the sydney-hobart race. That race is sometimes off the wind nearly the whole way, and a foiler would probably do quite well except for one problem. What happens if you get out into Bass Strait, and there are huge waves with no backs(as there tends to be in that area)? If you could retract the foil then that would obviously protect the foil to a certain degree, but if your racing the skipper might not want to retract the foil because the boat will then slow and not be able to race effectively. If you then keep the foil extended and go flying off a wave at 20+ knots, when you land, i wouldnt expect the foil to be in good condition. And thats if its still attached to the boat. Also, if a boat is designed to be flying off the wind, what happens if it loses the ability to fly? Its like these canters breaking their keels and not being able to race. If the keel cants, they can sail, but if it breaks, they either can lock it on the centerline but are way overpowered, or cant lock it on the centerline and are screwed.

[CT 249]

Doug your understanding is wrong, USA 2 is right, Black Rock is part of a very large bay with a very SMALL opening to Bass Strait. It is rough, a bit like the Berkeley Circle course in SF I'm told. Reports of races in 17 knots hitting 20 speak of 1 to 1.5m waves, but Sabots and Minnows (like a Sabot with less freeboard) including novices still sail there and finish in those conditions.

All that area is rough, but it is still used by Sabot kids, Mirror sailors, Minnow sailors, A Class sailors, and small trailable yacht owners as well as big bigger boats. It is NOTHING like Bass Strait.

I'm not arguing that the foiler is less seaworthy than a regular narrow skiff, it may well be more seaworthy and perfectly seaworthy IN THOSE CONDITIONS. But you can sail an 18' skiff, an A Class or a Sabot at Black Rock and that doesn't mean you could sail an upsized version of an 18. A or Sabot across Bass Strait. You can't draw a comparison between a boat at BRYC and say that an upsized version of that concept could sail the Strait safely in a range of conditions.

OK, if you want to change the accepted definition of LOA go ahead. It means that by your definition all the Moth foiler people are cheating which I don't agree with, but still....I won't argue, I want to go and measure the 6' skiff...but then again it HAD to have the bowsprit in the water that makes it an 11' skiff..Oh damnit, it's too confusing I'll go windsurfing on my 8' board, which becomes an 11' board when I raked the rig aft and jump so it's sailing off the rig which must then be measured. Oh forget it, it's all too hard.






_____________

Port Philip Bay is open to the Southern Ocean in line with the prevailing wind-and it gets really rough and was during the Worlds according to one of the competitors. And the little Moth foilers handled it quite well considering the conditions. Winning didn't hurt either.
In any high powered boat in the ocean you have to be judicious in how and when to go fast. Stupidity, poor planning, bad design will get you every time when the conditions become really bad.
But none of that precludes the use of foils on ocean racers if they are well designed and used intelligently.And they will be.....

[usa2]

when its "rough" in Port Phillip bay, the waves are between 3-6 feet. thats not neccasarily large, especially for a bay of that size. The waves there also arent steep with no backs, so the foilers arent falling off them and smashing things. Im not questioning a moths seaworthiness, that would be stupid of me because its been proven that they are more seaworthy when flying and that the foilers handled the rough conditions well. I was talking about using foils on open ocean racers, not boats that are sailing in a bay. Falling off a regular 6 foot wave at 15 knots or so is nothing like like falling off a 20+ foot wave with no back. Also, you say that the foils will be designed wll and used intelligently. Obviously one would hope that, but since no open ocean racing monohull is currently using foils like this to fly above the water, then the foils will be "well designed" for what the designers know at this point, and as for being used intelligently, well, nobody has ever sailed on an ocean racing foiler in a storm, so that would mean tactics in rough weather would be based on what one knows about conventional monohulls. That could lead to some problems. By the way, do you actually know of any people who are currently thinking about designing AND building a foiler monohull for offshore racing? Most of the owners i know about with money to burn are getting into the 30m supermaxi class.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Lorsail

Port Philip Bay is open to the Southern Ocean in line with the prevailing wind-and it gets really rough and was during the Worlds according to one of the competitors. And the little Moth foilers handled it quite well considering the conditions. Winning didn't hurt either.
In any high powered boat in the ocean you have to be judicious in how and when to go fast. Stupidity, poor planning, bad design will get you every time when the conditions become really bad.
But none of that precludes the use of foils on ocean racers if they are well designed and used intelligently.And they will be.....

WRONG, Doug, the wind at BRYC is in line with the Heads only 12% of the time in January (official website of Bureau of Meteorology) and the Heads are only about 1.25 miles across so stuff-all swell comes through to make it that far. Prevailing January wind is a southerly sea breeze, not SW which is the direction of the heads.

And as I said before I saw this comment, it's rough, but no so rough that Sabots can race there. I don't think anyone who has sailed in the Sandringham/Black Rock/Mordie area and done a Hobart or five would even begin to compare the conditions.

Chris, I NEVER compared Port Philipp Bay to the Bass Strait!! You've misread something. I pointed out to 2 that the Moth foilers sailed the Worlds on Port Philip Bay in very rough conditions very successfully-but in no way did I make a jump from there to the Bass Strait-go back and re read!
2, the best I can say is that I know for a fact that serious investigation of the application of hydrofoils to keel boats is going on.
There are many ways that foils could be applied-from partial lift like the banana boards on Open 60 multies to full flying downwind..
It's a difficult problem with a lot of potential.
======================================
Length, again:
Chris, I'm not changing any "definition" of length-merely pointing out that in the case of the Moth it is 12.75 ' LOA. Thats just a fact and is particularly relevent in the case of a foiler because in order to be able to foil you MUST add 16% to the 11' "official Length" of the Moth hull.It might sail with a "normal" rudder hung on the transom of an 11' Moth hull but it would NEVER foil.
I raced a 15'6" Windmill for years and that didn't include the rudder as it doesn't in most classes. But when you start ading 18+" "gantries" to move the rudder aft it is completely misleading ,though very traditional, to say that the boat is 11'! And the ONLY reason I point out the overall length is that it is CRITICAL in comparing one foiler with another-it is a very important detail. And since there are "Moth like" foilers being developed that dimension will be more and more relevant.

[usa2]

Lorsail-
if you know for a fact that "serious investigation of hydrofoils to keels boats is going on", couldnt you supply us with some more specific information? As in, what people, or organization(s) are doing this "serious investigation"? As far as we know, it could be you doing the serious investigation. Also, on these ocean racing foilers, if they are being concieved by someone somewhere, about what size are they? are they going to be able to match up with the the Aussie(and NZ) 90+ footers offshore? Im assuming that these offshore foils would be made of carbon fibre. That stuff doesnt tend to have a lot of "give", so to say, so if you screw up and land wrong or overload it, the thing will just explode and be gone.

I've definitely been playing around with the concept for about five years starting with experiments to fly a canting keel model. In the course of that I ran into a patent on a system for generating righting moment from the fin of a canting keel which can allow ballast to be reduced even more than is already possible making foiling even easier. As a matter of fact that is one of the keys to allowing some use of foils to be viable on a keelboat.
I don't know the details(other than what I've already mentioned) of any ocean racing monofoiler just that some people that I have immense respect for believe it is an important part of the future of offshore sailing.
I'm completely convinced of this but ,no, I'm not doing a "serious investigation " myself right now.

[usa2]

that still doesnt imply who is doing it. Also, now you're just saying that they "believe it is an important part of the future of offshore sailing". That says they believe its important, but does that mean they are doing any R & D on this? And from what you said, you are convinced that some people you know believe it is important for future offshore sailing. i believe that statement, because obviously some people think that is important for future offshore racing boats. The question here is, of the people who believe it is important for offshore racing in the future, are any of them designers and /or other people who are working toward actually building an offshore foiler? and if they are, who is doing it. Most designers, if they have a website, would have some information available, unless this is a top secret project.

You're absolutely right.....

[gybeset]

Originally Posted by Lorsail

Chris, I've always thought it was absolutely ridiculous to call a boat 11' when it was actually 1.75' longer than that! In the Moth for the purposes of comparisons to other foilers overall length is important. I've said clearly
said that 12.75 is length overall putting it in parentheses next to the hull length-11'(12.75' LOA).
Comparing the way Paul Biekers 14 foil performs to the Moth in terms of what the rudder foil does is completely off base: they act in two different ways! As you can tell by looking at a picture of both boats under sail...

big quiz, how longs thebloody 14 then ? it's rudder is off the stern idjit

you don't call it a beiker 16

[gybeset]

Absolutely tries to relate and confuse canting to foiling, which is stupid, all in the effort to promote himself.

wheres the pics of yr machine foiling ??

a person ridiculous for calling a moth 11'

YOU are then ridiculous for the same reason, calling an I14 a 14

can't relate to real-world weights of offshore capable racers

[CT 249]

Doug, USA's post 29 referred to races in the "open ocean", your post (30) replied by referring to BRYC and saying it was in a big wide bay open to the southern ocean (which is a bit like Bass Strait in description).

USA's post 31 said (correctly) that PP Bay is not like Bass Strait and S-H conditions, and your reply in Post 33 said (incorrectly) it was open to the Southern Ocean in the prevailing winds, then used Moth worlds placings to say that offshore monofoilers were practical.

I don't think I've misread anything, you specifically used conditions on an enclosed bay as reply to USA2's concerns about deep water monofoilers.

You also got your meteorological and geographical facts totally wrong, but you didn't mention that.

Re "when you start ading 18+" "gantries" to move the rudder aft it is completely misleading ,though very traditional, to say that the boat is 11'!"

No it's not, ask the designers. Hull weight, volume, B/L ratios, DLR, all remain unchanged regardless of where you stick the rudder. It's a minor issue in most boats. Either that, or everyone involved in skiffs is an idiot. We've all known down here that gantry and rudder length is a different factor for about....hmmm 50 years now.

Other factors change with the complete length (ie including trapping extensions and prods) such as kite size, kite lift, controllability in nosediving, etc etc etc. That doesn't mean the boat suddenly becomes longer than it is when measured in the normal way.

The Moth is defined by its ISAF rules as having an LOA of 11'. The normal measurement of LOA by IRC, ISAF and other rules does not include the rudder. Even fishing boats do not include outboard brackets and outboards and rudders in their LOA measurement. The outboard powerboat case is a classic one, because they need their outboards much more than a Moth foiler needs its rudder foil. The powerboat can't even move without its engines yet they and their mounts are not measured in LOA, the Moth can sail quite happily without its rudder foil.

So either EVERYONE ELSE in the world is wrong, or you are. Take a pick.

Chris, it is absurd to use my comments about the Moth on Port Philip Bay to say I made any reference whatsoever to that being like the Bass Strait. You have to read into my commens to do that not read it! I pointed out only that the Moth sailed it's World Championships in very rough conditions to answer 2's comment that foilers(like the Moth) could only sail in shelted inshore water and "relatively flat seas". In no way did I then or do I now feel that the conditions on Port Philip Bay are equivalent to the Bass Strait!!!!!
The length thing is because I point out the actual overall length of a Moth?! In parentheses!? Even after I explain that the reason I do so is because as a hydrofoil it is important to know the overall length since the boat actually SAILS on the rudder foil?
Not one single other monohull(class) sails in the same way as the Moth does-- flying on foils-and so I feel it is important to point out the actual overall length for comparison between it and other foilers. The Moth is a new case in sailing -something 100% revolutionary and I feel it calls for a little more explanation than the traditional -and very misleading 11' but only because it is a foiler.

[usa2]

Lorsail-
3-6 feet is relatively flat seas. You still havent answered some questions directly, such as who is researching/designing large offshore foilers, or what happens to a foiler when it falls off a 20+ foot wave at 20+ knots.
Also, regarding the moths foils, it seems to me that you are the only one who seems to care that the moths outboard rudder makes the boat a foot and 3/4s longer. I14s arent really 14 feet, but you dont see people when talking about them saying something like , "well, i raced my I14(16 feet) and so and so happened...." I dont think it exactly matters. Another example of length differentials are the Aussia and NZ supermaxis. Skandia and Konica Minolta are probably around 110 feet if you count the bowsprits, and Nicorette would then be approaching 100 feet. But NOBODY cares. Theres a 30m upper limit, and those boats are allowed to race. People refer to them as the 98' supermaxis, not the 110 foot supermaxis.