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  #916  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:38 PM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
After Peterson's designs won that "46 Footer Class" at the circuit 3 years running not one client came to him for a boat of that size for 1980.
Of course Sinett and DC were back as class B winners 1981 with the Peterson 48' Williwaw(4) after the boat had won the Bermuda in 1980, although she might not be considered a "46 footer" but rather a "50".

Magic Eliza, Tina I Punkt(3) and Ragamuffin(4) showed mediocre results in Europe 1979 and maybe there were higher expectations as Magic Eliza and Tina I Punkt(3) had the new Peterson lines (eg broader stern) from the smaller but exceptional 2 tonners Yena(2) and Dida Quinta.
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  #917  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:12 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salkbj View Post
Of course Sinett and DC were back as class B winners 1981 with the Peterson 48' Williwaw(4) after the boat had won the Bermuda in 1980, although she might not be considered a "46 footer" but rather a "50".
Right, Seymore did not build a Williwaw for '80, but you would think someone would have thought, "Gee, Peterson's designs have been dominating this size for the past 3 years, maybe I should get his latest." But no one did.

The Williwaw 48 footer was a "small" 48 footer. It was put into semi-custom production by Dennis Choate here in SoCal, and was the dominant "Class A" IOR design for about 3 years.

The even wider-sterned Forte/High Noon/Dust 'Em had some success. I prefer the look of these wider-sterned types, but you can't argue with the scorecard.

For rating and all around performance the Dida/Yena/Serendipity shape seemed to be better. The Design 77/Serendipity 43 was without a doubt the most successful single design of the IOR era. SORC Overall wins 3 times (plus class wins '80 through '84), Transpac Class wins, Big Boat Series, LBRW, Chi-Mac Overall, Sardinia Cup, Admiral's Cup, and on, and on, and on...

Then Peterson tried some boats that were actually narrower (Secret Love 45 footer, Bullfrog 55 footer) that were very, very fast.

So there were more ways than one to skin the IOR cat.
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  #918  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:05 PM
Richard 4073 Richard 4073 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post

Doug would still have the original drawings. If you can get hold of him maybe he would burn copies for you. I traded e-mails with him a few days ago, but I don't think I should give his contact info out to anyone. I know you can find him quite often at the SDYC bar, having lunch or informal meetings with people.
Hi Paul, that is great that you have contact with Doug Peterson. I have been in touch with a keen IOR historian in France (Chorus) who is putting together a stylised profile drawing of B195, but we're not sure of the centreboard shape or profile (before they changed it for the '78 Clipper Cup), and also wondering if Doug might still have the lines drawings. If you don't mind could you send me your email details to mine (rich7140@hotmail.com) and perhaps you could pass on a drawing to Doug? cheers
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  #919  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:29 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard 4073 View Post
Hi Paul, that is great that you have contact with Doug Peterson. I have been in touch with a keen IOR historian in France (Chorus) who is putting together a stylised profile drawing of B195, but we're not sure of the centreboard shape or profile (before they changed it for the '78 Clipper Cup), and also wondering if Doug might still have the lines drawings. If you don't mind could you send me your email details to mine (rich7140@hotmail.com) and perhaps you could pass on a drawing to Doug? cheers
I'm sure Doug has the drawings. Last I heard he still had the front 8 feet or so of B195 in his yard. It was cut off and hauled home after the boat burned at the SDYC dock.

Here is a photo of my half model of B195 for reference. This model was built by Tom Stephenson who sailed the boat. Tom is also a master model maker and is responsible for all the Hobart Winner models at the CYCA, so the details should be somewhat correct. Maybe Tom would have the drawings for you.

I'll send you my e-mail address. I can forward whatever to Doug. Whether he responds or not can be hit or miss.
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  #920  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:53 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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I was just a kid reading mags at this time, but I seem to recall that Jack Knights wrote that there were two 46' Williwaws, both to the same "pintail" design as HR and SS, but with the second boat more high tech in construction. It's possible that the first boat I'm recalling was HR.

The second one, which went on to become Apollo IV, went to the UK for the '79 Admiral's Cup and sail for Singapore IIRC. She then became Nick Nack II, did OK in England, may have done an Onion Patch for the UK team, and I think was still IRC rated a couple of years ago.

I was drooling over Superstar one day as a 16 year old when Syd Fischer chartered her for the Hobart (DNF). Syd invited me out so I got to do a social inshore race on her. I can recall having the brace in one hand and the sheet in the other and getting rapidly wider, as that was a lot of load for a not-so-big teen. I also raced her years later as Battlestar, when she was not going well.... and kept up a record of sailing with Syd once every 25 years or so on another Rags.
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  #921  
Old 12-06-2012, 08:01 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
I was just a kid reading mags at this time, but I seem to recall that Jack Knights wrote that there were two 46' Williwaws, both to the same "pintail" design as HR and SS, but with the second boat more high tech in construction. It's possible that the first boat I'm recalling was HR.
High Roler and Williwaw (#2, the 46) were the same design. They were built a few months apart. Williwaw was a "higher tech" version, it was written, so your recollection is correct. The next Williwaw (#3) was a different design.

IIRC Superstar was slightly stretched, to 47' rather than 46. Probably an inch at each station spacing. I believe she was the top scoring boat at the AC Trials there in Oz.
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  #922  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:10 AM
SukiSolo SukiSolo is offline
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Genie Farr 1/4 tonner

Hi guys
In the late 70's I was fortunate to have raced aboard Genie sister ship to 45 South which won the 1/4 ton cup in 75. She was a great boat to sail just like a big dinghy. As I learnt to sail in Nat 12 and Merlin Rockets it felt very familiar. The fractional rig worked brilliantly and she would do 6.25 Kn upwind with a good suit of sails. Of course she planed offwind sweetly too with no great nosediving tendency as the stern 'dynamic buoyancy' was not at all extreme.

To give an idea of her performance, on a Cowes Cherbourg race she was second boat physically around the Cherbourg mark. This despite starting in Class V well behind the Class 1 and 2 boats. She also managed the passage from Lymington to Milford Haven in less than 24 hours - still a very very good time for any modern yacht.

She was owned by the late Graham Bruton who used to sail Merlins at Ranelagh SC (Putney). Also she was built very well in a conventional glass layup. When surveyed in about 76 only half a dozen minor air holes were found in her hull. Do not know where she is now. The Norlins to a later rule outclassed her eventually but until the rule change she was still very quick.

The Farr 1/2 tonners were not as good and a Britton Chance design 'Great Express' No K555 was a bit of a dog as it pitched too much. She was a 32'
half tonner and I well remember losing the mast at around 4.30am off the Needles..... lovely stuff rod rigging...
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  #923  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:07 AM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SukiSolo View Post
...and a Britton Chance design 'Great Express' No K555 was a bit of a dog as it pitched too much. She was a 32'
half tonner and I well remember losing the mast at around 4.30am off the Needles..... lovely stuff rod rigging...
The Great Express ended up in Norway and participated in the HTC80. She managed a 5th out of 46 at the British HTC78 trials but didn't perform either at HTC78 nor HTC80. 1982 she was modified in hope of making it to the HTC83 in Norway, to no avail. She was for sale earlier this year under the threat of being scraped.
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  #924  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:20 AM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Originally Posted by SukiSolo View Post
The Farr 1/2 tonners were not as good.....
You are referring to Farther Bruin (veneer,77), or?
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  #925  
Old 12-07-2012, 06:51 AM
SukiSolo SukiSolo is offline
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Farr 1/2 tonner

Thanks for the heads up on the 'Great Express'. I only sailed on her doing a Cowes - St Malo race and it was on the return that the mast went.She had an experimental 3 spreader one which was lighter than the previous 2 spreader version. That is what we found out later having cleared up the mess......flat 2nd battery and the other had driven the nav lights etc. Bump started engine eventually. She was doing OK a couple of knots over the tide with bare hull and fortunately the tide was going W - E where we wanted to go. With one guy hanging over the stern rail (green around gills) one steering it took quite a bit of strength to get the rig/mast/sails etc on deck. A junior hacksaw was our best friend. Fortunately the mast did not puncture the hull.
4 on board at the time.

There was something wrong in the shape, probably to get around a rule, and she would have needed fairly serious remodelling underwater to get her to work properly. In no waves she was quite quick. We had her over 10 Knots surfing mid channel on a beam/broad reach.

The only Farr 1/2 tonners we raced against in Genie were a cold moulded one and a cream one. We could beat them on the water almost all the time especially in light or heavy air. Can't remember their numbers, quite pretty though.

One good thing about the 'Great Express' - she taught me that cold moulded boats have very little condensation compared to any other material!. She was quite well built but I think you'd have to change that shape to get something nice. Genie was so easy to steer by comparison and the softer fractional rig so easy to control (no poxy runners) feedback was direct and
sweet. Exactly as any well set up and well natured shape should be.
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  #926  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:35 AM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
Right, Seymore did not build a Williwaw for '80, but you would think someone would have thought, "Gee, Peterson's designs have been dominating this size for the past 3 years, maybe I should get his latest." But no one did.
Was it not Williwaw(4), the 48 footer, that won the 1980 Bermuda Race, with Tom Blackaller?
Williwaw(3) was sold to a Greek and participated in the 1980 Sardinia Cup under the name Greek Machine!?

...and, Williwaw(4) had her rating uped 1 feet after SORC81 removing her from the class B top spot and ended(?) Sinett's engagement in the sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
The Williwaw 48 footer was a "small" 48 footer. It was put into semi-custom production by Dennis Choate here in SoCal, and was the dominant "Class A" IOR design for about 3 years.
The Choate boats would be Annabelle Lee, Aleta and Ghost, or?
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  #927  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:50 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salkbj View Post
Was it not Williwaw(4), the 48 footer, that won the 1980 Bermuda Race, with Tom Blackaller?
Williwaw(3) was sold to a Greek and participated in the 1980 Sardinia Cup under the name Greek Machine!?
Yes, I believe (4) did win Bermuda. It had been finished and sailed extensively the year before going to the SORC. This wasn't the normal way, as boats were often still being screwed together days before the first race.

I seem to recall (3) going to Germany, but I would have to go back and look some things up to try to know for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by salkbj View Post
...and, Williwaw(4) had her rating uped 1 feet after SORC81 removing her from the class B top spot and ended(?) Sinett's engagement in the sport.
Yes, the 48 is the boat that had the rating issue. There was something very fishy though, since the claim was the DSPL was off by 1500 lbs on the certificate compared to the freeboards taken on the re-measure. The claim was that Harvey (the boat nanny) had used a hose and filled the boat with the excess water. But if you calculate 1500 lbs of Salty H20 and consider these boats had no bilge sump, why would the measurer not see all this water sloshing over the floorboards?


Quote:
Originally Posted by salkbj View Post
The Choate boats would be Annabelle Lee, Aleta and Ghost, or?
The Choate 48s included Brisa, Annabelle Lee, Amante, Elusive, etc.

Aleta and Ghost were 46 footers of a different design.
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  #928  
Old 12-07-2012, 03:02 PM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SukiSolo View Post
The only Farr 1/2 tonners we raced against in Genie were a cold moulded one and a cream one. We could beat them on the water almost all the time especially in light or heavy air. Can't remember their numbers, quite pretty though.
Farther Bruin, built at Gatehouse Yachts, most likely design #54, had originally clear coated wood top sides and cream deck/sheer. Was there a sister boat?
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  #929  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:04 PM
salkbj salkbj is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
I seem to recall (3) going to Germany, but I would have to go back and look some things up to try to know for sure.
Williwaw(3)->The Greek Machine, for sure. The point I was trying to make, there was one(1) 1980 commission ;-)
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  #930  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:49 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salkbj View Post
Williwaw(3)->The Greek Machine, for sure. The point I was trying to make, there was one(1) 1980 commission ;-)
Understood.

But the point I was trying to make was there was no commission in that size for the Circuit that year. Here in the USA in those days the SORC was THE regatta to win. It was the opportunity for rich guys to unzip and see who had the most...

There were plenty of commissions for the Peterson office that year. That was in the heyday of his IOR domination. There were commissions in other sizes for the Circuit, and many others for clients who weren't doing the SORC.

Maybe some of the potential customers figured Seymore would be back at the Circuit, knew they were not going to beat that well-oiled machine with a similar boat, so went elsewhere hoping for a breakthrough that would deliver the win?
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