Old Quarter Tonners -Magic Bus

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by steveo-nz, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    If we look at the OTC:

    '74 Peterson (light at the time, but moderate)
    '75 Peterson
    '76 Chance moderate with tiny stern
    '77 Farr Lightweight (all competitive boats entered were lightweights, and the conditions favored them as well).
    '78 Holland moderate
    '79 Davidson lightweight in a flukey, 3 race regatta
    '80 Vallicelli moderate
    '81 Castro moderate
    '82 ?
    '83 Sciomachen moderate


    The 3/4 Ton results look similar.

    The HT results seem to show a bit better results for the lightweights (77-79) before everyone outside of France basically packing it in around '80.


    Sadly I grew up in an area with light/moderate conditions. Here the lightweights had troubles due to lack of punch.

    As I've said before, sailing a moderate boat in Wellington against lightweights would have been a problem, just as sailing a lightweight in most of NA, or in Cowes, against the moderates proved to be a problem.


    What some call moaning others consider a voice of reason. With almost all of the top boats at the '77 OTC being structurally damaged, sinkings of boats from OT, HT, and QT fleets, and lives lost, people did not look forward to being forced to go to sea in boats of that type in order to be competitive in certain conditions.

    Imagine if the ORC had not taken steps, and the Admiral's Cup Fleet contesting the '79 Fastnet consisted of mainly lightweight centerboarders. I fear they would have had a much bigger problem than they did.

    Remember, all this comment coming from someone who really likes those boats.
     
  2. Koch
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    Koch Junior Member

    Paul, I think you're probably right. One of the problems with the IOR rule was the rating benefit of a high CG, even on the keel boats. I did thousands of miles on a DB2 back in the eighties. A wonderful sailing boat with a full crew on the rail during a race. On deliveries, usually either solo or double-handed, the lack of power to carry sail close-hauled in a bit of breeze was a bother. Also had a similar problem delivering a light weight N/M One Ton back from Bermuda... had to lie a-hull for about 18 hours during a 30-knot blow, just didn't have the stability to carry any sail up-wind with only 3 aboard.
     
  3. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Koch, hmmm, that is interesting. Maybe it is only the antipodeans and the French who can sail these boats correctly.
    "But Farr made little or no changes with the new boats; he was confident with the original design and the two new, stripped out One Tonners, Jiminy Cricket and The Number had only minor cockpit and transom differences.
    Recognition of local light displacement designs had arrived but countering this move, animosity arose between the two differing factions with heavy yacht advocates angrily prophesying the demise of the new lightweights in strong winds and heavy seas during the upcoming New Zealand One Ton trials. But the new Farr boats dominated the series and in a heavy weather middle distance race, took, along with Young’s light One Tonner Checkmate, all the top places. In conditions with winds to 60 knots, where the heavy brigade had felt assured the lightweights would break up, it was not the light designs that failed but the heavy boats who all retired – forcing them to swallow their own bitter bile.
    The two new Farrs then went to Marseilles for the One Ton Cup and between them, won all the breezy races but struggled to stay in touch with the heavier yachts in the flukey Mediterranean conditions, finally finishing in fourth and fifth overall."
     
  4. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member


    This part of the comment helps to prove my earlier point.

    The lightweights could do well in their conditions, but were not competitive with the moderate boats in their conditions. Also, vice versa.

    Most of the Northern Hemisphere sailed in conditions that the more moderate IOR boats had an advantage in.
     
  5. Bullitman
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    Bullitman Junior Member

    http://s780.photobucket.com/home/thebullitman
    Evening all, I thought it was worth sharing this link with you - it's the Bullit
    F8051 ('80 QT winner) alive and well and still with her aft overhang intact. Giving lots of pleasure to the chaps who bought her in Auckland 30 years ago.
     
  6. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    I remember that report from when I was a 13 year old sailing fanatic who worshipped the lightweights and hated those who brought in Mk IIIA IOR to curb their winning ways. But from a distance, the rule changes to slow the lightweights seem reasonable.

    Sure, the 1976 breed were strong enough to race offshore (with the exception of some like Taxi). But there WERE major structural issues with the 1977 batch of lightweights, as illustrated by the hull failures in the 1977 One Ton Cup. Knights, who you quoted, pointed that out. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that those were not issues that could be sorted once time showed the weak spots, as demonstrated by the fact that some of those very same boats from the ORC went on to have years of success in long races. And plenty of heavyweights had issues too. The very heavy Stormy Petrel (S&S 37, OTC winner 1971) withdrew from a Hobart with a cracked main bulkhead, the 3rd Morning Cloud (cold moulded heavy S&S) sank in a storm with loss of life in 1974-ish, the 1978 heavyweights lost rigs all the time, etc etc etc.

    But to abuse all heavyweights and all attempts to keep them competitive don't seem very fair to those who bought them, sailed them and loved them. Sure, the lightweights were great fun to sail in a breeze. But the medium and heavy boats were great to sail in light stuff, or upwind in a big breeze. Square running under those big, powerful kites or beating with those big genoas was cool; so was bashing upwind across the Strait. The early lightweights didn't do so well in those conditions; some did okay, but lots of heavy boats did better. For example, boats like the Kaufman 1 tons were quicker upwind in a breeze than most, perhaps all, of the contemporary Farr 1104s to my recollection.

    I can recall that trying to get an IOR lightweight downwind in 8 knots and Sydney slop was pretty damn boring or frustrating. And the 'heavyweight' Kaufmans and Petersons had been seen as light and exciting downwind flyers just a few years before. Everything is comparative and in their time those boats were not boring to most of us...in fact I can recall being worried going downwind in Kaufmans in big breeze, rather then bored!

    Some of us (like me) like light boats, others like heavy boats. Why not allow freedom of choice in our sport? Why not respect the fact that people from light wind areas can prefer boats that are interesting and fun to sail in light winds?

    As mentioned earlier, if you allow offshore racing boats to become obsolete quickly, you will only hurt the sport and most especially, the sort of bare-*** backyard builders who can least afford to have a specialist racing machine or to lose years of savings and effort every time someone comes along with a newer boat.

    Why hate those who slaved and saved for years to buy Cav 32s, Cole 43s, Sarabandes, Candu-types and the like? Why not change the rules to close loopholes or weaknesses in the system, and allow these sailors to keep sailing with a chance of winning?

    Exactly how does it help sailing to throw vastly expensive machinery onto the junkpile? The Kaufman 1 tons I sailed on were both owner-builds. How would it help the sport if those owners found that their cash and effort had been wasted? The changes to the IOR kept those boats in the hunt and allowed their owners and crews to have fun and win when they sailed well and the wind was right. Is that so bad?

    It seems a bit odd to reproach the heavy brigade for their 'bile' when some of the light brigade are still bilious, decades later.

    And the 'only the French and Antipodeans can sail these boats' line seems utterly at odds with the fact that Antipodeans were not exactly dominating other classes and other forms of sailing in the late '70s. There doesn't seem to be evidence of a massive southern skill advantage when we look at Aussie Olympic results, for example.

    One interesting point is that as far as I can find out, ocean racing in NZ and many other places was never as popular as it was in that period shortly after Mk IIIA came in, when light and heavy boats and new and old boats all raced pretty closely, albiet slowly by today's standards.

    PS- the other ton classes;

    2 ton

    1976 - Williwaw
    1977- Iorana (Peterson MH heavyweight pintail) That year the Farr 2 tons were beaten in AC trials in Oz and Hong Kong.
    1978 - Midnight Sun??? (Holland Imp style MH)
    1979 - Frers MH (beating Dubois and French fractional boats)
    1980?
    1981- Hitchhiker, Frers MH

    3/4 ton

    1975- Peterson's Solent Saracen?
    1976 - Finnfire (MH heavy)
    1977 - Joe Louis (the Frers heavy MH Samsara was 3rd IIRC).
    1978 - Maligawa (French frac)?????
    1979- Soldier Blu??? (X 102) followed by a few years of medium displacement X boats and Dehlers.

    When the 1tc went to the 30.5 rating in 1984 (?) the boat that finished 4th was either the 1979 MH Holland Regardless or a slightly later sister, if I recall correctly. So as Paul pointed out, we had years of fascinating racing between boats of very different styles.

    We had freedom of choice - what is to hate about that?
     
  7. Koch
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    Koch Junior Member

    Gary, it's not a skill issue. Both the DB2 and N/M OT (30.5) had excellent race records. It's simply a matter of stability when sailing the boats short-handed, as on a delivery. When the wind gets up to about 30 knots, 1 or 2 aboard a light 3/4 T or 3 aboard a light OT simply isn't enough rail weight to carry enough sail upwind to make reasonable progress. It would be like being a 60 lb Laser sailor in a strong breeze... they may not capsize, but they sure aren't going to be able to go upwind.
     
  8. Koch
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    Koch Junior Member

    CT, interesting that you brought up Regardless... she would have won the Worlds but for sailing into a hole a few miles from the finish in the long distance race, and being passed by many boats. IIRC, Regardless was the only MH-rigged boat.
    I sailed aboard the boat in the 1987 SORC, we won the IMS Division - only had to start the last race to secure the win. Not knowing anything about the IMS Rule, we left the boat in IOR trim since we knew the boat in that configuration. In about half the races we were able to catch the modern IOR OT's (which started about 15 minutes ahead), and beat them over the finish line. Regardless remained in Florida for several years after, even getting Florida West Coast "Boat of the Year" about 1990, and was sold sometime in the mid-90's, going to the Great Lakes, I recall. A very fast and wonderful boat to sail. As near as I could piece together, Regardless has done 8 Trans-Atlantic crossings on her own bottom. The only failure of which I'm aware is the loss of the rudder in the '79 Fastnet. Many of the Kiwi Yachts built boats lost rudders in that period - carbon and aluminum don't mix!!!
     
  9. Koch
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    Koch Junior Member

    Interesting. The boat appears to be well-cared for. Looks like they're using an oversized chute now (spin pole extending past the bow, halyard a couple feet above headstay). I'd love to have that boat!
     
  10. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    In that era the heavyweight J41 was also sailing as a masthead One Tonner and a well prepared version WON the SORC One Ton Class in 1985, whipping the lighter, fractional, state-of-the-art Beneteaus, Farrs, J/Ns, Soverel, Vallicelli, and Peterson boats. A very stock J41 had been 3rd in the class the year before.

    Another won the North Americans against a similar group.
     
  11. Koch
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    Koch Junior Member

    You're right Paul. I didn't sail the SORC in '85, I was messing around with the Kiwi-35 prototype at the time. I did take the boat out during the tune-up races in Tampa Bay prior to the Circut to take a look. Had several college girls as crew, who were sunning themselves on the wings in just their bikini bottoms. We sort of fell in line a little astern of a mini-maxi on a spinnaker reach, and just blew right past them with only the main and blade - wind was about 10-12. The crew on the mini-maxi was falling all over themselves diving below to grab cameras. We circled them a couple times, and waved good-bye and sailed away. I think we created a bit of a stir :D

    The Beneteaus weren't very fast, the only big win I recall one getting was the '87 Chicago-Mac. We had them covered on corrected time with the DB2, but the wind went flat just after the lead OTs finished, took us about 7 hours to sail the last 10 miles. We finished 5th OA, about 20 minutes out of first. The OTs took 1st thru 4th. Second in our class was a G&S HT, correcting about 3 hours behind. The next 3/4T was about 6 hours behind.

    The Soverel OT was also slow, we beat one quite badly in the '87 SORC with Regardless, and another up on the Great Lakes that summer with the DB2 (yes, boat for boat - every race).
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I was involved a bit with the first Kiwi 35 out here on the West Coast. A friend was the dealer and he wanted quotes on a local rig, instead of shipping the boats with rigs. I can say the boat was quick in a very limited way. There were points of sail and wind velocities where it was terrible. The Moore 30 was a much better, smaller version. But even that wasn't all that great.


    The Beneteaus finished 2nd and 4th in class at the '85 SORC, 2nd and 6th Overall. The DB2 was 15th overall. Sounds like they were OK compared to the DB and most of the rest of the state-of-the-art at the time.

    A few months later one was 5th at the Worlds. A 33rd (of 39) in the first race really hurt them. Other than that every other finish was top 10. Only one other boat had 4 finishes in the top 10, the 2nd placed Farr. Finishing the first race in the top 20 would have placed the Beneteau 3rd overall behind two very well prepared custom boats. Not too shabby for a production boat.

    I think they were also a top 5 in the next cup, but I don't have those results at hand. Big Boat that year was a good result as well. Not a win, but surely competitive.
     
  13. CRM
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    CRM Boat Builder

    The Yamaha 1978 QT. Worlds.

    Attachment is from Yamaha brochure. Also, a side note about an old Kaufman Two tonner called Foxfire, once a board boat that sat around in the Seattle area during the 80's. It was converted to a fixed keel boat to start racing once again. The first outing was the Victoria to Maui race. Within a short distance of Maui the rudder failed. A new rudder was installed after much difficulty. Upon sailing the upwind slog to Puget Sound and in the straits between Port Angeles and Port Townsend the cold molded woody was holed by a dead head. Sinking just as coast guard 40 footer arrived on scene.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Timoniere
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    Timoniere Junior Member

    Hi Bullitman,
    I don't know anything more about Alain Jezequel.... for sure his last design was Cantiere del Pardo's Grand Soleil 39'....
    Probably Alain is not with us any more... after long years of depression: it's sad because he was really a nice person and, at his way, a genius!




     

  15. Timoniere
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    Timoniere Junior Member

    .... regarding results of lightweights vs moderate, I'm agree that IOR preferred the second ones giving to them an extra sail prize... That just to say that the best solution depends by the rules and not necessarly by the general concepts for speed.
    Going back in the years, adm.Straulino, after his winning OTC '73 on Ydra and after OTC '76, decided to buy a Farr's design to come back to the Cup...
    That boat was KEA (probably a wooden boat....) and, after a poor season, Straulino decided that the boat was too slow in Maditerranean conditions, so she was sold and her tracks lost. It's a pity as she was a nice typical Farr design of those years (1977...probably) but suffering for her lack of sail area.
    That's for our common memory, of course.




     
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