Old Quarter Tonners -Magic Bus

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CRM

I got a San Rafael, Poseidon Marine - Peterson 25 - 1/4 tonner as a kit in 72, and put it together.

I would guess more like 1974. Peterson's One Tonner Ganbare was done in 1973 and the Quarter Tonners came after. There weren't any Peterson IOR boats in 1972.

Originally Posted by CRM

Well along this line a Bruce King 38 foot, board boat restest near by. I have a shop in a small, boat yard located in the up town area,of Port Townsend, Wa. which has it's own stash of old timers, but the day I moved in, I noticed an old, long in the tooth, IOR bilge boarder. Low in it's cradle the unmistakable large hull with ample tumble home, moss covered north, starboard side, sitting quietly. A couple of us had to move its stick from along my shop to extrack a boat ready to go backin. It was a heavy section, Double spreader, rod rigging, Sterns twin fore stay job. I've take a number pictures and well post when I get handel on the sites software, are ask not to!

craig montague.

Please post photos when you can. It is pretty simple.

Are you sure the boat is 38'? Seems odd, since the King One Tonner was about 35' and the Two Tonner 40'. It would be strange for someone to have built a bilgeboarder at 38 feet, outside of any level rating band.


By a strange coincidence I am having lunch with Bruce King's son this week (he contacted me last week). I know him from university, and our connection was not boats but auto racing. I'll see what he knows about the different bilgeboarders.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CRM

I saw the 50 footer "Hawk-eye" in a Big Boat series down in the city. Truly something to watch just off the city front and between the Gate and Alcatraz. It just riped it up.

Hawkeye "was stolen" about 15-20 years ago, never to be seen again. Hmmm, a flush deck bilgboarder 50 footer with an outboard rudder. Yep, I'm sure it is easy to keep hidden.

Maybe it was a more artistic way of doing the same thing that was done to the Davidson 50 Great Fun.


If you own an old raceboat that no one wants, but you have insurance, ...

[CRM]

Lets take a look at this boat. The boat to the left is a Peterson 33. A Bayliner Buc 335.

[Gary Baigent]

That has to be her Paul, can't see the board exits but there is definitely no conventional keel base there - and the rudder looks like the original. Better hurry on down mate ... and hey, put a decent rig on that Terrorist. Sorry, just joking. Thanks CRM, just excellent sleuthing on your part.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CRM

Lets take a look at this boat. The boat to the left is a Peterson 33. A Bayliner Buc 335.

Peterson would be a bit miffed to hear someone call the Bayliner a "Peterson". It was a pirate job of his design, with no royalties to the designer. Bad form there.

The bilgeboarder in the photos is Uproar. I believe it is Terrorist renamed, or a sistership built at the same time. It should be an aluminum hull, 35 feet (maybe 36, not 38).

[CRM]

Royalties? Actuality Peterson knew all about Bayliner planes for putting the 33' and 29' into production. Orin Edison called Peterson wanting to strike a deal with him. Back in the 70's designers felt that was the way to deal with large production shops. Bruce Kirby was getting $1000.00 for each San Juan - 30, 1/2 toner made. I'm not positive about the SJ24- 1/4 toner, I recall hearing $800.00 per boat often mentioned (1718 West Coast production run). Orin wasn't dumb he knew Peterson was developing a solid reputation, thou he was NOT into sailboats racing, instead he liked working with Will Guarden on a fee base only. People like Edison do not think the way most of us do. He would not, nor would he be liked to a designer Thur royalties. His tendency is handling all services like this on a fee base only, take it are leave it.

Laurie Davidson, my personal hero, a much more savvy fellow drove the nail home by way of a base fee,up front in my experience with him. A "small shop" here in PT. wanted to do a 30 footer for the new IMS cruiser-racer market of 1989/90. $36,000.00 up front. Take it are leave it. I meet him at the time, and I think we hit it off. Personally I think the fellow is a great person. Working with him in 1990 was a high point in my humble career as a boat builder.

Bayliner bough the,33 & 29 production tooling from "Chaser Marine" I think Ontario, Canada, in a bankruptcy situation. The word I got amounted to right to" intellectual property writes" were severed under the sell of such properties. However, Peterson didn't view it that way, but I understand Orin wanted to pay a fee to Peterson for the use of his name. He refused to work it that way. Although I worked the companies engineering Dept. all this info to my ear is as a second. From Daryl Watson our young boy designer Orin was putting Thur The U. Dub. in Seattle.

Yes the Peterson 25 I made was bough in 1974. And this builders story (Petersen)is an interesting store all it's self. However, the building, construction drawings of the 25 were dated 1972, and probably developed parallel to his 35 footer.

The other sail boats produced at Bayliner were developed from "splashed" hulls of other companies Mostly Columbia, and Ranger. But it is 2:00am , and all that is for an other day.

crm

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CRM

Royalties? Actuality Peterson knew all about Bayliner planes for putting the 33' and 29' into production. Orin Edison called Peterson wanting to strike a deal with him. Back in the 70's designers felt that was the way to deal with large production shops. ...Orin wasn't dumb he knew Peterson was developing a solid reputation, thou he was NOT into sailboats racing, instead he liked working with Will Guarden on a fee base only. People like Edison do not think the way most of us do. He would not, nor would he be liked to a designer Thur royalties. His tendency is handling all services like this on a fee base only, take it are leave it.

Any way you couch it, it is still intellectual theft. Offering a designer a pittance "take it or leave it" is a rude excuse to cover the theft.

These early contracts taught the designers a lesson and later contracts were written with a "Personal Guarantee" by an officer of the corporation. That way if the corporation sold off the tooling the designer still had recourse for getting his royalties.

There were instances where tooling was built, and then a corporation folded, with all the players beginning a new legal entity in the same facility the next day, wiping out the contracts with the designers and sometimes suppliers. It was the wild west back in those days.

Originally Posted by CRM

Laurie Davidson, my personal hero, a much more savvy fellow drove the nail home by way of a base fee,up front in my experience with him. A "small shop" here in PT. wanted to do a 30 footer for the new IMS cruiser-racer market of 1989/90. $36,000.00 up front. Take it are leave it.

Most designers have a fee structure that includes an up front design fee plus a royalty for production. If LD was working with a small shop that he suspected might not build many (or any) boats he might simply get all the money up front, not worrying about royalties that would never come anyway.

Originally Posted by CRM

Bayliner bough the,33 & 29 production tooling from "Chaser Marine" I think Ontario, Canada, in a bankruptcy situation. ...However, Peterson didn't view it that way, but I understand Orin wanted to pay a fee to Peterson for the use of his name. He refused to work it that way.

Yes, the tooling for the 25, 29, and 33 were Chaser's.

Why would someone like Peterson allow someone to use his name if that person was so morally bankrupt that they would steal from him?

Originally Posted by CRM

Yes the Peterson 25 I made was bough in 1974. And this builders story (Petersen)is an interesting store all it's self. However, the building, construction drawings of the 25 were dated 1972, and probably developed parallel to his 35 footer.

I assume you are talking about Karl Petersen? I know of a few interesting stories about him myself.

[booster]

CRM, Paul B el al!
Well, nice photos of Terrorist. Her lines would hardly impress CRM’s hero-designer Laurie Davidson. Still the boat was one of the fastest of its time. Dennis Conner said something about that “Stars and Stripes” with gondola-bow (Fremantle, Australia) that took back the America’s Cup to USA: “Speed makes the boat beautiful”. I agree with him regarding that boat. In the case of “Terrorist” I am not sure… Anyway, I did some Google about the Bruce King design “Popeye”. I found no photo, but it had taken part in a competition regarding the worst boat in Sweden. To qualify I suspect it must have been after what the rule-changes made to it. It was extremely fast before that. Here is the site:

http://www.blur.se/2008/11/15/samsta...aten-nagonsin/

”Pelle L!!!!!!!
Vad hette den IOR-hojen 37-40 fot something m dubbla roder och sänk-köl?
Popeye?
Bruce King design??
Rörde sig knappt…”

In English it roughly says “that the boat hardly moved”. At the site:

http://www.blur.se/2009/05/22/sverig...aste-segelbat/

A similar competition regarding the ugliest boat in Sweden can be found. Well, the creation below is taking part. What can one say, some influence from Whiting in the bow. But the designer seems to lack Whiting’s knowledge of IOR. In Gary B’s book “Light Brigade” Davidson made a statement regarding Whiting’s designs. Something like: “lining the dots, which creates a big concavity, but he still gets the volume”. This probably means going the shortest way between the IOR measurement-stations. What dots that have been lined together in the creation below are hard to tell.
Regards,
Booster

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CRM

Lets take a look at this boat. The boat to the left is a Peterson 33. A Bayliner Buc 335.

Marty King confirms this boat is Terrorist, re-named.

Once the fastest One Tonner in the world (1975). Now, probably best in the recycling bin. I have to imagine the plating is not in good shape at this point.

I believe the boards were very early Carbon Fibre construction. I wonder what shape they are in now?

Marty also told me there was only one 2 Tonner (Aggressive), so any other 2 Tonners discussed must be that boat, re-named.

We're having lunch tomorrow, so I'll see if there are any more details to be had...

[booster]

Paul B!

Yes, Popeye was a one-tonner from Bruce King, not two-tonner. See Google results below. Again, the comments in Swedish below must deal with Popeye's performance after what the rule-changes made to it.
Regards,
Booster

Sämsta svenska segelbåten någonsin? | BLURJo PopEye var en Bruce King-entonnare från mitten på 70-talet som nog var riktigt usel……..Vad jag kommer ihåg kunde den bara länsa och var helt omöjlig att ...
http://www.blur.se/2008/.../samsta-s...aten-nagonsin/ - Cachad - Liknande

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by booster

Paul B!

Yes, Popeye was a one-tonner from Bruce King, not two-tonner. See Google results below. Again, the comments in Swedish below must deal with Popeye's performance after what the rule-changes made to it.
Regards,
Booster

I don't see that it says it was a bilgeboard boat, maybe just a "normal" IOR One Tonner of the time:

Yes PopEye was a Bruce King-entonnare from the centers on 70-talet that enough was really wretched ........ what I remember could it only county said and where entirely impossible to cross with or possibly abruptly about ..... on 80-talet was built it of course both it unite and it other in the country. Some that did not do a lot väsen of itself was surely it Sundén drawn entonnare that was built in Aluminum (in Lysekil? does it been called Delfin?), entonnaren as Håkan Södergren drew to PG Corp where of course nothing furthermore the neither and it last Ragnarök (afterwards Konlikt, afterwards Doctors Delay) did enough nobody fond neither if one will be honest but everyone these are long from qualifying in sämstalistan according to me. Imer modern time gets well it German ILC40: an Aerosail 2 stand that an off judgement the worst post cone or in order to quote Seahorse: “quite exquisite Kevlar stanchions but a complete varnish of real ridicule curse” but it was not of course Swedish of course .....

By the way, you people talk funny...

[booster]

Paul B!

Popeye most probably had bilge board. Some articles were written about -74 or -75. Well, it doesn't matter that much. Yes, we talk funny, but you should have heard Tor Heyerdahl at the opening ceremoni of the Olympics in Lillehammer, Norway. By the way, didn't that Heyerdahl design "Kon-tiki" have assymetric boards?

http://www.boatbuilding.com/article....winkeels/print

"In 1974 yacht designer Bruce King did a series of bilge board one tonners of which, Terrorist, was notable. She was so superior that the I.O.R. immediately outlawed bilge boards. In sailing his bilge boarders Mr. King says there was not a significant difference in performance between one or both boards down. In a cruising yacht the simplicity and lack of interior clutter certainly makes up for any performance difference between lifting and fixed keels."

Regards,
Booster

[booster]

Hi!
Well, Bruce King was not first with more than one board. The guara boards is dealt with on the site:

http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/mag..._tangaroa.html

"They are boards, about 12-feet in length, a couple of inches thick, and about 20 inches wide. They're made of heavy and durable wood. These boards have holes drilled through them spaced several centimeters apart, starting from the top and extending about half way down, through which wooden pins can be inserted. The pins are about a foot long with a two-inch diameter. The boards serve as a sort of rudder to steer the raft. They are constructed so that they can slide into specific slots between the bamboo floor and the balsa hull logs. These boards provide a surface area, which offer some resistance in the water beneath the vessel."

"We discovered that we could even steer directly into the wind."

A design development of Kon-Tiki can be seen below. One of the guara boards can be seen. The bow shows some influence of Whiting!

Regards,
Booster

[booster]

Well, I admit the guara boards were a bit overkill. The Ted Hood design "Knock on Wood" had several duels with the Bruce King design "Poipeye". Popeye always won.
regards.
Booster

[booster]

Hi!

Wave-rider still going strong in 5:the place!

http://halftonclass-europe.net/

Regards,
Booster