Old Quarter Tonners -Magic Bus

[dskira]

Booster, I have found memory of your beautiful country. I am glad you miss also the IOR because with all the disinformation against it, and the association of the IOR with the Fastnet race disaster all the time, it is sad. A lot of safe and funny race hapened without accidents, even with harsch weather. Force 10 in the Fastnet, no modern IMS sail boat can take it eather, if we look at the last one.
Say hello to the beautiful Malmo
Daniel

[booster]

dskira!
Agree with you regarding IMS. At the best they are mobile homes. No lines to sail on. Resembles the space-shuttles of the Orch's in STAR TREK.
Regards,
Booster

[booster]

Mychael!
I agree with you. As I said, your warhorse is beautiful. The quarter-tonner I sail has similar thumbelhome. Not that big, but still. But let’s take a look at another typical IOR-topic, the aft overhang. This has been dealt with before. The weight of the crew relative to the boats displacement is crucial. Among other parameters, like bow sections, bow-down trim, masthead vs fraction rig, this ratio seems to have a major influence on if the aft overhang works or not. The story of “Great Fun” has dealt with by Paul B. What worked so well in the case of “FUN”, “Wave-rider” and “Pendragon” didn’t work in the case of a 50-footer. Some of the maxi-raters like Kialoa’s (maybe number IV) and Condor designed by Ron Holland had similar aft overhangs. While competing against each other they seemed fast. But when German Frers designed a Maxi-rater suddenly Kialoa had to enter the shipyard. The stern was cut and a more traditional one was adopted. After the alteration the boat got faster. Guy Christer Lönngren of Finland was somewhat of a pioneer with this kind of extreme aft overhangs. His designs like the quarter-tonner, Guy 27, shown in a previous post is well known. I am not totally convinced but I am pretty sure that Guy found that the quarter-tonner was the maximum for this concept if combined with a traditional bow, full sections no concavities. In those days a number of four persons was allowed in the quarter-tonner. This result in a ratio, assume each person 90 kg, of about 360kg/1600kg=0.22 (for a racing Guy 27). Wave-rider perhaps 450kg/2200kg=0.2, and Pendragon maybe 540kg/3300kg=0.16 (as threequarter-tonner) obviously had fine enough bows handle the problem, but their aft overhangs were not extreme. Regarding boats with extreme overhangs like Ar Bigouden perhaps the ratio was 450kg/2000kg=0.22. Let’s be generous and not use the Ar Bigouden ratio, but that of Pendragon, to check the resulting number of crewmembers of Holland’s Kialoa and Davidson’s Great Fun. Assume Kialoa having a displacement of 30.000 kg (Great Fun say 15.000kg) and each crewmember weighs 90 kg. The resulting number of crewmembers is 53 for Kialoa and 26 for Great Fun. Perhaps Kialoa and Great Fun had half of these numbers. If just Davidson and Holland had listen to the early warnings by Guy the story of Great Fun and Kialoa could have taken another direction.
Regards,
Booster

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by booster

The story of “Great Fun” has dealt with by Paul B. What worked so well in the case of “FUN”, “Wave-rider” and “Pendragon” didn’t work in the case of a 50-footer.

I don't know what you are referring to, but it seems you have misunderstood something I have said.

Great Fun was a very successful design. It was dominant in the 50 foot size range when it came out. Won many regattas, including Big Boat Series. It was later scuttled because old IOR boats were not worth anything on the market. Insurance payouts were many times more than what the boats could sell for.

The long overhangs were faster. The IOR Technical Committee met specifically to plug this loophole in the rule. The Davidson 45 Schockwave came to the USA for Big Boat Series and terrified the existing fleet, so the rule was changed.

The Davidson 46 Pendragon never lived up to her promise, but it was probably not due to her overhang being long.


I have never heard any reports of the Holland Maxi Kialoa having the stern modified because it was too long.

[booster]

Hi!
First of all I want to apologize Gene Roddenberry and JRR Tolkien for placing the Orcs of the latter in the space shuttles of the former (see my previous post regarding IMS). Then an apologize goes to Laurie Davidson for what I wrote about Great Fun. Thanks Paul B, for the information about the results of Great Fun. Regarding aft overhangs, I raced against Bullit in the quarter-ton cup in -79. For sure the overhang works. Helmer Pedersen, who had won half-ton cup with Wave-rider the year before, found that it worked better on Bullit than on his own boat Hi Flyer (Davidson design). The guys in Captain Moonlight (Whiting design) were equally impressed by Bullit. When reading the book of Gary B “The light weight brigade” (thanks Gary) it is interesting to find NZ surprised by the downwind speed of Bullit in the quarter-ton cup in NZ -80. Helmer Pedersen had seen it the year before. According to Gary’s book Bruce Farr was confused about the speed of Bullit. My point is that I don’t think the actual length itself of the overhang is crucial. Put an aft-extension on a fast Forgus 31 halftonner (displacement 4.4 tons), it will not help. The wideness of the transom, the bustle at the (forward of the) aft girth stations and sharpness of bow sections have major influence on the behavior (besides displacement). Let’s go back to Great Fun. Probably the forward sections of Great Fun were finer compared to the lighter designs of Davidson. Is there a drawing of Great Fun? Regarding Kialoa taken to shipyard for aft alterations, CT249 probably have something in his magazine store “up the lake”.
Regards,
Booster

[booster]

Hi!
Well, I am leaving the subject for this thread "Old quarter tonners". But regarding Kialoa' aft overhang: I did some Google on Kialoa and come up with some results that Ron Holland designed Kialoa IV, that it had a sloping transom and that Kilroy chosed Frers to design Kialoa V. Some indications, but nothing about Kialoa IV going to shipyard for stern alterattions, though.
Regards,
Booster

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...36/2/index.htm

“Quality attracts quality, and for love or money, the new Kialoa has drawn a lot. She was designed by Ron Holland, the New Zealander whose light-ended little 40-footer, Imp, won the 1977 SORC.”

“On the sloping transom of his new Kialoa there is a global portrait centered on the Western Hemisphere. Hanging over the northwest edge of the globe is the familiar cartoon image associated with the legendary Kilroy of World War II—two little hands and a bald head with a long nose.”

http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200810.html

“Among them were Bob Bell's Condor, which was the Ron Holland 80-ft sistership to Kialoa IV”

http://www.southatlanticpublishing.c...d_p128-129.pdf

“There is a distinctive line to all Frers designs, which stand out in a crowded
anchorage just as strongly as the Nicholson, Sparkman & Stephens and Ray Hunt creations that Germán could identify from any distance when he was a boy. ‘Germán has great style – you can tell that from his choice of wives’ Jim Kilroy once joked before adding. ‘Actually, I have never seen him produce an ugly boat. He knows instinctively what looks right. That’s why I chose him to design Kialoa V.’”

[booster]

Hi!
I got this photo from MYD (see previous posts). He wants me to identify the boat. He most certainly knows who designed it. Maybe an Elfström/Kjearulf, perhaps a Håkan Lindqvist or Peter Ståhle design? Any ideas?
Regards,
Booster

[MYD]

I found it a boat add in Sweden. Its built in the late seventies for the 1/4 ton cup. I dont no anything more and neither does the owner. Would be fun if someone could pass some info.

Regards

http://www.blocket.se/stockholm/Unik....htm?ca=15&w=1

[Ramona]

Originally Posted by booster

Hi!
I got this photo from MYD (see previous posts). He wants me to identify the boat. He most certainly knows who designed it. Maybe an Elfström/Kjearulf, perhaps a Håkan Lindqvist or Peter Ståhle design? Any ideas?
Regards,
Booster
Attachment 33634

Have you searched this site?

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Quar...%20quarter.htm

[booster]

Ramona & MYD
Ramona, thanks for the site you provided. However, I still cannot identify the boat above. At the site I can see that Hi Flyer attended the QT cup in NZ -80. It says modified about it in the results list (5:th place). Obviously, Laurie Davidson made som alterations after the -79 modest results in Italy. I have mailed the owner of the boat above for more info, sailnumer and more photos. We will see if it helps...
Regards,
Booster

[booster]

Hi
I got another photo from the owner. Doesn't make it easier though.
Regards,
Booster

[Gary Baigent]

Whatever it is, it is definitely no Davidson. Looks somewhat like a Robber type except the transom is too Veed.

[booster]

Thanks Gary B!
Well, I agree about Davidson, but one cannot be totally sure. The quarter-tonner above looks a little like Åke Nordin's half-tonner Raven, about 15th in -78 when Wave-raider won first time. Raven probably was designed by Bergström&Ridder. This famous design-team was credited by Britton Chance Jr, in his 12-mr efforts. The half-tonner Beat&Run was designed by Bergström. Bergström is more famous as creator of the Windex. Knud H Reimers and Arvid Laurin designed boats similar to the quarter-tonner above. Arvid Laurin has influenced several NZ-designers. NZ has got a lot of immigrants from Scandinavia and Aukland, in fact, was built by Norwegians. Davidson is a common Swedish surname. So we cannot be totally sure, Gary B.
Regards,
Booster

[Gary Baigent]

Fair comment Booster, but I can't think of any Davidson with a chine, or semi chine like this boat - also the horribly shaped skeg and rudder is something the aesthetically minded Davidson would never do. Maybe it has been altered by owner. Also the protruding gunwhale is something he wouldn't do either. Again could be local modification. Not much help am I?

[booster]

Hi!
Gary B, I agree with you, the quarter-tonner above incorporates so many un-esthetic features that Davidson simply cannot be the designer. And now I leave the quarter-tonner thread, I am afraid, but it can be of general design-interest. The NZ America’s cup defender designed by Davidson with the innovative bow, that gave measurement benefits was said to have fore-runners in the 5.5metre. I Googled but found nothing about this, but instead this interesting information:

http://chanceforlifesailing.org/history.html

The ‘Complex II’ History

1951-52 Complex II designed by Swede Arvid Laurin and built at
Trickson Motolla boatyard in Sweden.

February Complex II won Giovannelli Cup in Genoa, Italy qualifying as USA
boat for 1952 Olympics.

June Complex II Won Gold Medal in Olympics.
(Crew: Britton Chance, Summer and Edgar White,
and alt. Michael Schoettle)

http://5.5inventory.org/USA/001/

USA-001 "Complex II" Designer: Arvid Laurin (SWE) Owner: Dr. Britton Chance (1952-1958)

Is it Britton Chance Sr. who won the Olympics or Jr.? Anyway, Jr. must have got some inspiration from Arvid Laurin.

Regards,
Booster