Offshore 30' ish class development

[Crag Cay]

Yeah, good bit of film. Those Mumm 30s are one of the boats I have been using as a bench mark for looking at the 9.50. The new class is going to have a greater righting moment, about a third more 'power to weight' up wind and slightly more downwind.

[charlythewind]

Hi all,

I will be the one presenting the rule in Southampton in March.
If you have any query you wish to raise before it, please feel free to contact me. (charles@fox-tech.co.uk)

Regards,

Charles Bertrand

[DGreenwood]

Thanks for stopping in here and offering your help. I am sure there will be many questions as this progresses.

Are you presenting the rule as finished or is is it still open for immediate revision?

How far along is your design. Are there bid drawings yet or is it still in conceptual stage? I see your rendering has interior so I would guess you are fairly well along?

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

CT 249
I take your point, but I can see that our perspectives are very different.

Yep!

Successful rule writing is like sex...everybody thinks they are good at it and nobody knows why the ones that are, are. When it comes to writing ocean racing rules in this part of the world the French are in posession of the crown, the sceptre and the orb. We are in no position to argue with their success.

Sure they are successful in ocean racing terms; I suppose one of the differences in our perspective is that (as far as I know) their rules are successful only in RTW or Trans-Atlantic ocean racing; not sailing in the Pacific or Med, or Channel, or Asia, or inshore at Cork, Cowes, Spi Ouest, the big Med. races, etc.

However they have very kindly thrown this out there for us to voice our opinions.

That's good of them, and since they have done so they are surely interested in getting plenty of divergent views.

They are as aware as anybody that races like the Vendee have the potential to be considerably bigger than they already are. It would really facilitate that growth if the rest of the world were involved. The sole purpose for these classes is not to entice us into the ring but it is certainly part of it. It would serve as an incubator for all of us.

Given the desire to get the rest of the world involved, isn't it important to compromise their style to create a boat that would suit the US, Australasia, UK, Med, Scandanavia, Asia and the rest of the world?

In order to write a successful rule these days you first have to be a person or a group that is connected, believable, and in the case of ocean racing, understand the mind of the ocean racer.(Whew now there is a job). You have to have been around the scene for long enough to really understand it's subtleties. Guys like Vidal hold that sort of influence and he and his pals will ultimately call the shots. I am OK with that...I have to be anyway. So if he is going to allow anything we say to influence the decisions made, our opinions must be within the confines of the spirit of the rule as basically outlined.

But why not try to understand the mind of someone like me; a guy who lived aboard a light 28 footer for years so he could buy an ocean racer, and then gave up in disgust and moved back to small boats because it became obvious that the rulemakers didn't give a whit about those who didn't have new purpose-built boats?

If you only listen to suggestions inside the spirit of the rule in that case, you could say that it will probably fail to interest significant numbers of people outside of the North Atlantic

Their goal is the advancement of the professionalism of the sport of short-handed ocean racing. The development of the big IMOCA races into world class sporting events. To do that they need a "Farm Team" to incubate the stars of the future. Learning to be a fighter jock involves first flying a Cessna, but you don't jump to an F16 from there.

That is what this rule addresses. It is not primarily to sell more production boats to the average guy that needs a platform to drink beer on Saturdays. (Although if he is a dreamer he may help by buying one) The primary purpose is to edge close enough to that market to fund the development of racing, and still have something that is a real trainer. That is the delicate balance.

I suspect that any opinions that we throw out there will affect the rule, as it stands, by very small degrees. Weight and stability regulation methods, bow sprit type, how much interior furniture that is required, number of water tight bulkeheads, that sort of thing. I doubt that rig size will be see much of our influence. However the regulation of weight distribution will affect control of the structual integrity and RM, so there will be some affect on the sportiness of them.

Yep, I didn't really think my/our views would have much influence.

I see their approach as highly informed, well intended, very sportsmanlike and having the potential to become even bigger than the Class 40. They are saying "come on over and play you guys, these things are ton of fun" And, when it comes to baking bread and writing ocean racing rules, I must defer to their success!

They're in the same situation as the skiffs were; great boats designed around their own needs with very little use outside their home town (and the RTW races). As the skiffs found, it's hard to get much interest when you tell the rest of the world to play your rules - but if you compromise to suit the rest of the world, they'll jump on the bandwagon.

Keep in mind that the handicap rating, IRC, PHRF, whatever, has no bearing on the decisions made concerning these boats. You can be sure you will be rated right out of the picture. If you care this is not the right racing class for you. I spit in the general direction of handicap rules.

I, in contrast, like handicap rules. I want to be able to sail the sort of boat I like to sail, rather than being straight-jacketed into a design pretty much like the next guy. Yeah, strict ODs and development/box classes are great (which is why I sail both) but so is having the freedom to sail the boat you want to own.

In most places around the world, most racing is done under handicap rules. Doesn't history show that if you present a class that will get walloped in local racing most weekends, you'll struggle to get critical mass, just like the MG 30, Level 8000, MORC 650, JOG 650, 780 TY, ILC 25, 30, 40, Level 30, Super 30, Open 9.5/Open 30 etc did.

I know that you and the rule designers are much closer to the market than I am, and know more about it. I suppose I feel that it would be nice for each of us to come closer to each other, rather than for everyone to be expected to go all the way to the Open style.

You speak of people aiming to be like their heroes; I think people like me respect the shorthanded guys, but they have moved well away from our interests like the Fastnet, Hobart etc and therefore we are less interested in them as they and their boats are quite remote from our sailing (which is much more popular).

[Vega]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I know that you and the rule designers are much closer to the market than I am, and know more about it.

Ct, I don' think this has to do with the boat market, but about the best way to raise interest, develop and train young oceanracers (sailors) that later would compete on the 40class and finally the open60s or whatever the future class for professional top ocean racers. If this is not the right boat it will be another one, not very different (inexpensive, fast, safe and with solo characteristics).

Of course lots of boats, lots of racers will raise public interest and increase the publicity revenues making possible more investment in sailracing and in sail racers. I believe that soon this will be a world affair, much bigger than the Minis. We are talking about racing sailors, an oceanracing scene done in racing boats and about an initiation class that should be inexpensive but interesting.

Regarding Oceanracing, people and the average sailor is much less interested in what a crew of 8 can do in a boat remotely similar to the one he owns (or can own). We will never sail with a crew of 8 and will never have 6 guys to sit on the rail. He is interested in what can be done in that boat by one skipper, or a duo crew, because it is like that he sails most of the time and he his interested in a type of boat that doesn’t need a large crew to sail fast.

[DGreenwood]

CT
I made that comment about the handicap rules half in jest. I realize that on a club level they are important. The problem starts when big money guys get into the picture. You have to admit that, even though it somehow satisfies a need to see the little guy win occasionally, it is not a good situation to have an old, beat up cruiser beat a multimillion dollar professional effort in a handicap race. Meeting the needs of the ordinary Joe(me), the high roller (Roy Disney) and the investing companies (Volvo) has us going in all directions.


I am speculating that our perspectives are different mostly because our sailing communities are very different. Here, I can go to a typical marina of maybe 1000 boats. Most of them sit there year round untouched.(by most I mean 90%) Amongst them there will be maybe 4 or 5 boats of interest to me. A couple nice traditional boats or a nicely done cruiser or if I'm really lucky a well done racing boat. I always imagine they are much more common for you. (although I don't know that) A Brit can go see the start of the Fastnet or you can go check out the Sidney Hobart. Those races exist because there is interest in ocean racing. The few ocean racing starts that we have here are pretty much unattended by anyone but the racers themselves. And most of them are pretty Podunk.
Hell, when the Transat finished in Boston last time, the harbor was ablaze with the colors and banners of the ORMA and IMOCA fleet. They hardly turned a head. The business people walking by on their way to work barely noticed. Same when the Volvos were in New York. The common guy on the street doesn't have even the basic nautical sophistication to recognize what he is looking at.

And I am aware that leaping that financial chasm to an Open class ocean racer is one big leap. Right now we in the US have no choice but to do a French jig (is there such a dance?). There are a few of us that would like to see sponsored sailing germinate in the US and this is the only way I can see it happening.

The viewing public(or at least the public we hope to have viewing) love superlatives. They want to feel like they are watching something unusual, difficult, athletic, maybe a little crazy, heroic and most of all at the upper limits of what is possible. You and I know that Etchells racing is very competitive, but to most onlookers you would have a hard time showing them any visible improvement in the Etchells sailors from twenty years ago. ( is Etchells really that old?) Sponsored racing is at least partially about brand promotion. That means attracting onlookers, which in turn means we have to look at who has been successful in drawing the viewers. Well, certainly in a few types of racing the French have far surpassed us at this game.

I'll confess, I am aware that much of what I am pushing for here runs contrary to many who would like to see a more grassroots development of interest in sailing. It doesn't seem to have worked here. I’d love to see massive fleets of inner city kids in Optis all on their way to becoming the sailing rock stars that populate a thriving, marketing driven, Grand Prix sport, with their names on Wheaties boxes. It isn’t going to happen that way here.

But if for just a moment we can keep our desire to meddle with an already established venue. If we can get lucky and have an Ellen or a Lance Armstrong happen, then we will have a top down shot. If we just play their game for now, maybe we will get to call some shots in the future. Look at the influence the UK has in IMOCA these days.
We need to train, I mean really train, some top notch short handed sailors to make a showing in those venues. This is one of the classes that may make that happen in North America.

For now, for Americans at least, we need to be the ones comprimising.

[charlythewind]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

Thanks for stopping in here and offering your help. I am sure there will be many questions as this progresses.

Are you presenting the rule as finished or is is it still open for immediate revision?

How far along is your design. Are there bid drawings yet or is it still in conceptual stage? I see your rendering has interior so I would guess you are fairly well along?

It seems that the rule is pretty much set up and i doubt there will be some more changes to it. However, if you suggest ideas very soon, i can bring them up to JM Vidal who's supervising and making the decisions at the end of the day. You may find some info on LeoV's forum.

I think by March, 17th the rule will be finalized.

The thing is we now need to set the rule so that the designs can be advanced and some boats can start to be built...

As far as my project is concern, it is still in the preliminary stages. By that i mean that i have enough data to ask for an accurate quote (did some structural calcs, etc...) but some parameters/details are going to be changed. I have been fairly busy lately by the design of a Class 40...
I shall spend some time on my design before the conference and hope to be able to present a building price as well.

So please make suggestions very quickly, i'll see if i can answer if it is an issue have already discussed about or if i can pass it to JM Vidal.

Regards,

Charles

[charlythewind]

Hi all,

Here are the latest updates of the rule:

- the maximum beam is down to 3.70m
- the displacement is up to 2700 kg (to enable production boats designed to the RCD structural requirements to be as close to the minimum displacement as possible)
- the sail area is now limited to 80m²
- the aft extremity of the boom/mainsail must be at least 40cm forward of the transom
- the engine must now have a minimum power enabling a motoring speed of 5.55 kts
- lifting rudder blades are permitted
- the total number of sails is now 8 including storm and trysails

The rule committee is being formed and discussions with the FFV (french federation) are in progress in order to make the rule official.

Cheers,

Charles

[Crag Cay]

Hi Charles,

I guess the sail area restriction is 'plain white sail' including overlaps, but excluding spinnakers?

In Paragraph 209, there was a typo in the original wording that will need ammending in the revised version. (There was a 'not' missing - ne doit dépasser)

What's the thinking behind the engine spec change? It would now seem to have become an unnecessary complication. Checking compliance has gone from 'Volvo D-20, check!' to having to stipulate load and environment conditions and then conducting speed tests, in exchange for what benefit?

[charlythewind]

Indeed the 80m² stand for the real upwind sail area (including roach, squared tips etc...) Offwind sails are free of any surface limitation.

Well spotted for the 209 mistake. the new update now prevents the boom to extend further aft than 40 cm in front of the transom.
As soon as the definitive version will be issued, i will translate it and make sure it does not contain any typo...

I agree with you about the new engine minimum power requirement. If this latest version is to be definitive some specific conditios will have to be specified etc... which seems more complicated. The aim might be to enable a smaller/lighter engine if you have a boat that produces less drag (narrower...)
I will ask some more details about the motivations of such a change.

Cheers,

Charles

[charlythewind]

Hi,

i just got some more details from JM Vidal about the motivations for the new minimum propulsion requirement of the rule:
"The new formulation opens the door to new/alternative propulsion techniques/systems, while still complying with the OSRs and enables smaller/lighter engines to be fitted."

cheers,

Charles

[Vega]

The 9.5 class designs start to appear.

Take a look at the Hugues Farsy/Olivier Gouard boat. Isn’t it a beauty?

[SloopJohnB]

I have read this thread along with the "New Grand Prix Rule" & "Notable open & development racers" with interest as I am looking for 30 ft approx boat to build for shorthanded sailing (2 crew) offshore (4 crew) and round the buoys with a full crew of 6.
What is the best design for this cross over type keeler, the open designs to dinghy type are not for me, the sportboats like the Thompson T30 are to extreme.
After a lot of reseaching the Whitbeard/MG/LD30 rule provides the best solution with its water ballast capability for shorthanded and crew racing situtions. I feel that water ballast is far superior to a canting keel for a cross over keeler, as the canting setup doesn't give any advantage for shorthanded sailing.From what I have read this rule has run its course and very few boats have been built recently, why has this happened? Its there another rule? The GP 33 is getting a bit big, also it doesn't have any allowance for water ballast.
Any advise and comments.